Author Topic: BCA CRoW Poll Result  (Read 33013 times)

Offline damian

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BCA CRoW Poll Result
« on: December 22, 2014, 10:21:18 pm »
I've just posted the result of the CRoW poll on the BCA website.

Many thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. BCA Council will be discussing how to proceed at its next meeting on 10 January.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2014, 10:47:23 pm »
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Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2014, 10:58:55 pm »

A majority (1402) voted yes but it saddens me greatly that 864 cavers voted against.  864 voted not to campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  To me that is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Anyway the scores are in and not very different from the poll on UKcaving.  Thanks to Damian for letting us all know ahead of the January council meeting.  Merry Christmas.

Offline cavermark

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2014, 11:15:56 pm »
Number of eligible voters: 6,085
Total number of votes cast: 2,270
Turnout: 37.3%

Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 11:29:10 pm »

A majority (1402) voted yes but it saddens me greatly that 864 cavers voted against.  864 voted not to campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  To me that is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

They have their reasons, and I think they deserve a bit more respect that being equated to turkeys. I feel your comment was rather inappropriate, given that it is everyone's interest now to work together, and not slag each other off. Please try to get cavers closer rather than drive them further apart.

Offline menacer

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 03:27:09 am »
Are there stats for the club votes. ( the ones where commitees decided not the cavers themselves)
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation/consensus between the politicians and " their electorate"
Eg did nearly 2/3rds of the clubs/regional councils vote yes too.
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Offline mmilner

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 03:45:40 am »
Number of eligible voters: 6,085
Total number of votes cast: 2,270
Turnout: 37.3%

Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?

Not many I'd have thought as you need BCA Insurance for most caves these days to keep the landowners happy...


Moderator Comment Subsequent tangential insurance comments resulting from this post have been split into a new thread. Which can be found here: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17534.msg230564
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 10:22:06 am by Cap'n Chris »
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 07:07:42 am »
From a thread a while ago (link below)...

Cap'n Chris mentioned earlier, with 'absolute certainty', 'when offered with a choice of "Yes, or No", approximately two-thirds of people vote Yes for no ostensible reason other than that people naturally are inclined to say yes when asked….

Approximately two-thirds. Was I right?

 :read:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17155.msg226728#msg226728


Another predictable trait of human nature is to bicker after a vote about whether it's valid, whether it was wholly representative, whether it should be ignored or re-counted, or re-done, ... whether people really knew what the question was, whether they knew what the consequences would be and whether that would have altered their voting choice, if they knew how much money it had cost them, was it skewed by dint of asking the "wrong question" ...bicker bicker etc.. People wanted a vote, a vote was had, the results are in. Let the process continue (I'll refrain from pointing out yet more obvious consequences!). People love a good bickerment.

Stanhope has a cynical observation about opinions:

« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 09:24:19 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline al

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 07:47:41 am »
Are there stats for the club votes. ( the ones where commitees decided not the cavers themselves)
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation/consensus between the politicians and " their electorate"
Eg did nearly 2/3rds of the clubs/regional councils vote yes too.

Both of my clubs (TSG and CCPC) asked their members before placing the club vote.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 08:38:38 am »
Are there stats for the club votes. ( the ones where commitees decided not the cavers themselves)
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation/consensus between the politicians and " their electorate"
Eg did nearly 2/3rds of the clubs/regional councils vote yes too.

Both of my clubs (TSG and CCPC) asked their members before placing the club vote.


Likewise at UCET - all the members were offered a week or so to vote in a club vote and then the ballot paper was returned accordingly.
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Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 08:47:48 am »
Are there stats for the club votes. ( the ones where commitees decided not the cavers themselves)
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation/consensus between the politicians and " their electorate"
Eg did nearly 2/3rds of the clubs/regional councils vote yes too.

If clubs did the reasonable thing and asked  their members how the club should vote wouldn't we expect the club vote to be close to 100% YES?

Offline NigR

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 08:55:49 am »
A majority (1402) voted yes but it saddens me greatly that 864 cavers voted against.  864 voted not to campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  To me that is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Yes, that is sad but it is not surprising. Caving, particularly here in South Wales, has always attracted those whose main concern is to exercise their control over others. This is because there is a tried and tested (readily accepted) infrastructure already in place for them to do so. These type of people are hardly going to vote for their own demise are they?

Offline Fulk

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2014, 09:10:46 am »
Quote
Caving, particularly here in South Wales, has always attracted those whose main concern is to exercise their control over others.

I find that an astonishing claim / allegation; most cavers I've met over the donkeys' years I've been doing it simply want to get underground with the minimal hassle.

Offline NigR

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2014, 09:14:16 am »
Quote
Caving, particularly here in South Wales, has always attracted those whose main concern is to exercise their control over others.

I find that an astonishing claim / allegation; most cavers I've met over the donkeys' years I've been doing it simply want to get underground with the minimal hassle.

It is neither a claim nor an allegation. It is a personal observation based upon 42 years of caving in South Wales.

Offline Dave Tyson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 09:16:19 am »
WCG asked its members a few weeks ago for their views on CRoW and caving as part of the feedback to our regional council, CCC.
Since the majority thought CRoW should apply the club voted yes.

I have heard a rumour that one NW club suggested its members vote no and so I guess that club voted no...

Dave

Offline Antwan

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2014, 09:40:11 am »

A majority (1402) voted yes but it saddens me greatly that 864 cavers voted against.  864 voted not to campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  To me that is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Or maybe 38% have concerns that the BCA now need to very mind full of moving forwards, more so than if it was a 90/10 split.

<gobble gobble>

Offline Bottlebank

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BCA Membership: tangential insurance thread
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2014, 09:47:34 am »

BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only £5million is no longer considered sufficient.

For third party liability? what sort of scenario would require more than this?

Since truth is stranger than fiction, any guesswork scenario you can envisage (no matter how bizarre and preposterous it may sound) will be nowhere near as bizarre and preposterous as a reality that could result in a +£5m claim.

An accident to a young child resulting in quadriplegia could easily result in a claim higher than £5 million. But this is a bit off topic I think?

I'm a bit disappointed in the result, not for reason you might think, i.e. because it's a yes vote, but because of the size of the vote.

Just 1400 out of over 6000 cavers, less than 25%, of BCA members have voted for CRoW. The remainder either don't know, don't care or have voted against. Obviously some may not have received the ballot papers. I suspect the BCA decision to not present cavers with any information plays a big part in this.

So the end result is that BCA will be embarking on a process that could result in reduced access, in an era where as we've seen recently access has been improving, based on the wishes of less than one in four members.

To me that's a pretty sad state of affairs. The true situation is a very long way from the overwhelming support we've been repeatedly told CRoW enjoys amongst cavers, in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box. 

I'm also disappointed in Badlad's statement, as the forum owner it's a bit odd to describe a third of your own members as "turkeys", perhaps we should all be sending him stuffing for Xmas as he has so many to deal with?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 10:19:08 am by Cap'n Chris »
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2014, 09:58:42 am »

A majority (1402) voted yes but it saddens me greatly that 864 cavers voted against.  864 voted not to campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  To me that is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Or maybe 38% have concerns that the BCA now need to very mind full of moving forwards, more so than if it was a 90/10 split.

<gobble gobble>

BCA need only be mindful of the fact that a democratic process has established that the majority who voted did so in favour of campaigning for the inclusion to go underground re: CRoW. The percentages make no difference to how BCA should act - that's democracy.
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And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2014, 10:01:33 am »
Just 1400 out of over 6000 cavers, less than 25%, of BCA members have voted for CRoW. The remainder either don't know, don't care or have voted against. Obviously some may not have received the ballot papers. I suspect the BCA decision to not present cavers with any information plays a big part in this.

So the end result is that BCA will be embarking on a process that could result in reduced access, in an era where as we've seen recently access has been improving, based on the wishes of less than one in four members.

To me that's a pretty sad state of affairs. The true situation is a very long way from the overwhelming support we've been repeatedly told CRoW enjoys amongst cavers, in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box. 


I'm also disappointed in Badlad's statement, as the forum owner it's a bit odd to describe a third of your own members as "turkeys", perhaps we should all be sending him stuffing for Xmas as he has so many to deal with?

You can only be confident of 864 supporting the opposing yes vote. Anything else is conjecture.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 10:24:21 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Bottlebank\'s insurance comments redacted to keep thread on track; the redacted full quote is in the BCA tangential thread »
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2014, 10:04:25 am »
Stuart,

I'm not arguing BCA doesn't have a mandate based on this, I'm saying it's a very poor one, and a very disappointing one.

Tony
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Offline zomjon

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2014, 10:11:53 am »
I'm afraid that I am one of those 75%, waited hopefully for my voting slip before it dawned on me that my club had probably kept me on my old address! Just for the record, mine would have been a 'yes'

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2014, 10:16:47 am »
Tony

I'd disagree, but I'll assume that you know I would. What worries me is that BCA follow a similar mindset to yours - that they only have 25% of member support. They don't, they have nearly two thirds of the vote cast. Half measures won't do.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2014, 10:17:50 am »
... Just 1400 out of over 6000 cavers, less than 25%, of BCA members have voted for CRoW....

... based on the wishes of less than one in four members.

... in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box. 

I completely agree it is a sad state of affairs but as already stated, it is democracy. Do I like it? No.

As a comparison, in 1997 the Welsh population balloted on Whether Wales should "devolve" and the result was 50.3% "yes" and 49.7% "no" with a turnout of only 50.1%

In round figures, that pretty much equates (ie. roughly this; in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box)

As a result, Wales devolved. I voted against it and still live in Wales. I have embraced the change, love the country and I work "with" the regime (and enjoy my life here). I could choose to be "upset" but then it would be just me that suffers. I could choose to fight but I am not likely to win and I would probably spend my life in misery.

It's the same with every democratic process, not every one votes and we all have to live with the consequences.

How we each "handle" the result of that process determines what we each (individually) get out of it.

Ian
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 10:32:12 am »
Tony

I'd disagree, but I'll assume that you know I would. What worries me is that BCA follow a similar mindset to yours - that they only have 25% of member support. They don't, they have nearly two thirds of the vote cast. Half measures won't do.

I think we may have agreed to disagree before :-)

I agree half measures won't do, I think BCA should be worried, this is a half measure. A quarter measure really. And partly their fault.

In fairness to Badlad whilst I don't agree with him he's made his case very well for one person, but BCA should have made sure everyone was aware of the facts and risks on both sides before wasting money on a poll that in my opinion has done nothing to end the uncertainty.

If less than one in four cavers think this is a good idea should they really be wasting more time and money on a second poll to amend the constitution?
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Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 10:44:59 am »
Mr Bottlebank.  I did not call anyone a turkey.  Apologies to anyone who voted 'no' who took my comment that way.  I was trying to express my sadness at the number of people who voted against a campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  In my opinion a 'no' vote is something that is detrimental to the health of the future of caving.  So I tried to use a seasonal English idiom to express that.

FYI from wikipedia;

"Turkeys voting for Christmas is an English idiom used as a metaphor or simile (in the construct "like turkeys voting for Christmas") in reference to a suicidal ("death-wish"[1]) political act, especially a vote. In the United Kingdom, turkeys are customarily eaten on Christmas Day dating back to 1573 when they became part of the English Christmas dinner.[2]

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations writes that a commentator in the Independent Magazine traced the origin of the phrase to British Liberal Party politician David Penhaligon,[1] who is quoted as saying: "Us voting for the Pact is like a turkey voting for Christmas" in reference to the Lib-Lab Pact which he opposed.[3]

The phrase was soon borrowed by other politicians and public figures.[1] In particular, British MP Teresa Gorman, who opposed the Maastricht Treaty, stated; "If the House of Commons voted for Maastricht it would be like 651 turkeys voting for Christmas."[4] When confronted over time spent on luxury by United Kingdom Independence Party MEPs, Nigel Farage responded by saying that "we are the turkeys that would vote for Christmas".[5]"