Author Topic: VIP caving trip to GG - press release  (Read 16754 times)

Offline martinr

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2016, 06:15:45 pm »
£30000 is a fiver a caver. £100000 is approximately 20.

I'll put up a hundred!


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Good luck, let me know when you've set up the crowdfunding page

Offline David Rose

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2016, 06:43:12 pm »
There is more than one way to skin this legal cat, and it may well be possible to get a costs protection order - which would mean the risks and costs would be much lower than one might imagine. I'm still hoping that persuasion and lobbying will work. If not: watch this space.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2016, 08:09:53 pm »
I really wouldn't worry too much about that predictable response from the DEFRA spokesperson, like all government departments they'll cling on like limpets to their decisions, no matter how ludicrous they subsequently appear. Just watch 'em backpedal once a few more MPs see the sense of the pro-CRoW for cavers lobbying.
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Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2016, 11:44:48 pm »
Agree with Tony, don't forget DEFRA are civil servants employed to interpret government legislation, they don't make the rules and are frequently at a loss as to how they should be interpreted, surely the way forward is to persuade their taskmasters (The MP's) to clarify whether caving, as an 'outdoor pursuit' should be included--

Initiatives like this can only serve to benefit this cause, well done Tim!  :thumbsup:
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Offline ianball11

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2016, 12:59:47 am »
I usually ignore paper articles and on websites about the winch meet once again taking people so very deep into the earth.  So I didn't bother reading this one either, but then noticed I've met one of the people in it which is cool and realised it was a trip through Bar Pot!  that's pretty cool well done guys.

Offline martinr

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2016, 08:44:41 am »

.......the way forward is to persuade their taskmasters (The MP's) to clarify whether caving, as an 'outdoor pursuit' should be included.........


I don't think that's how our legal system works. Once a law is enacted, it's up to the courts to interpret the legislation, all the way up to the Supreme Court. All MP's can do is enact an amendment, and somehow I don't think the govt will see this as a priority so the best you can hope for is a private member's bill. I'm not holding my breath....

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2016, 09:25:29 am »
Until it goes to Court is it not a case that everything else is just posturing, sabre-rattling and wishful thinking? If so, BCA will need to commence proceedings presumably, if it really wants to establish and prove this topic. A perilous path that could bring about an interesting future.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2016, 11:45:54 am »
Sorry, I beg to differ. The interpretation of the CRoW Act as it might relate to caving is purely a point of view from a government agency and with ministerial pressure this can readily be altered without going through the courts. Perhaps Ms Rose could clarify this?
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2016, 11:58:15 am »
... BCA will need to commence proceedings presumably, if it really wants to establish and prove this topic.

I don't think so. Defra do not decide the law, all they can do is give an opinion. My opinion is that caves are included, the QC's opinion is that we can enter caves under CRoW and Defra's opinion is also that we can enter caves - with the minor caveat that Defra are unwilling to say exactly how far into a cave we can go. In my opinion that is enough of a green light. What part of 'GO' do some people not understand?

I don't expect anybody to take me to court. I feel fairly confident that the major landowners are not bothered and I don't know why some people seem to be assuming they are.

Online Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2016, 12:31:20 pm »
Sorry Simon but YOUR opinion, and the QCs opinion counts for nothing in law.
National resources Wales, and DEFRA have both recently stated their position that CROW does not apply to caving.
These are the organizations that administer the legislation.
Until the legislation, or the guidelines change caving is not covered by CROW.

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2016, 12:46:34 pm »
I seem to recall that in Ms Roses analysis, she said something along the lines of :- "there seems to be no indication that caving was intended to be excluded from the legislation".

 All we are pursuing at the moment is clarification of whether or not it is, should be, or is not included, all this talk about court test cases is, in my opinion, complicating the issue unnecessarily. Surely the way forward is to enlighten the law makers as to what the issues are and persuade them that caving should not be excluded, no change, no amendments,  just clarification from the highest level. This initiative is part of that process and I applaud all involved in it!! :thumbsup:

P.S. Just read Wayland Smiths post and would remind him that Natural Resources Wales are currently considering adopting the Scottish system which does specifically include caving---
 Also to remind him that DEFRA consists of civil servants only, who can be advised/instructed how to interpret the rules.

 
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Online Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2016, 12:56:01 pm »
If N.R.W. change their policy that will be very good.
However the situation today, as stated in their reply to the solicitors letter is firmly that CROW does not apply to caving.
What "might be" in the future does not change the things today.

Offline martinr

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2016, 01:22:36 pm »
Quote from: yorkshire post

A [DEFRA] spokeswoman said it has no plans to change the legislation, and any legal opinions supporting a right of access to caves “remain just that” until they have been considered and ruled upon by the courts.


Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2016, 01:26:01 pm »
Sorry Simon but YOUR opinion, and the QCs opinion counts for nothing in law.
National resources Wales, and DEFRA have both recently stated their position that CROW does not apply to caving.
These are the organizations that administer the legislation.
Until the legislation, or the guidelines change caving is not covered by CROW.

Defra and NRW don't 'administer' the legislation. They have a duty to give advice on the legislation. Many people say their advice (opinion) is wrong.

Offline martinr

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2016, 01:28:27 pm »
Sorry Simon but YOUR opinion, and the QCs opinion counts for nothing in law.
National resources Wales, and DEFRA have both recently stated their position that CROW does not apply to caving.
These are the organizations that administer the legislation.
Until the legislation, or the guidelines change caving is not covered by CROW.

Defra and NRW don't 'administer' the legislation. They have a duty to give advice on the legislation. Many people say their advice (opinion) is wrong.

Many people including DERFA's own legal advisers say their advice is correct

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2016, 01:34:03 pm »
Quote from: yorkshire post

A [DEFRA] spokeswoman said it has no plans to change the legislation, and any legal opinions supporting a right of access to caves “remain just that” until they have been considered and ruled upon by the courts.


DEFRA has no ability to change legislation, they, and the courts, can only interpret it, Caving is not specifically excluded from the act, neither is it specifically included, this is what needs clarifying.
We are, unfortunately, trying to 'pick up the pieces' from the NCA's lack of action when the original proposals where laid down---.

If this is a true quote, I suggest the spokeswoman was speaking outside of her remit---.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 01:55:54 pm by bograt »
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Offline royfellows

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2016, 02:10:46 pm »
The laws of the country are made by parliament and the courts. Parliament enacts legislation which is then enforced by the judicial system.
From time to time a question of interpretation of the law, or maybe a perceived lacuna (loophole) my be used as a defence argument. Whichever way it goes the decision could then be appealed to a higher court maybe going all the way up the ladder to the UK Supreme Court which replaced the Court of Appeal and the Law Lords. The final decision would then become law by precedent.

From this two things emerge, first that parliament could then be aggrieved by the courts decision and pass an amendment to the original act, this would then override the decision of the court and become the law. An example that springs to mind is that relating to speed radar detectors.

The second is that any court decision is only a precedent relative to a lower court, so only a decision of the highest court, The UK supreme court, could be considered a true precedent.

Test cases in criminal law only arise through a defence argument. If someone is aggrieved by a statutory bodies interpretation of the law then they can apply for a judicial review into the way that body administers the law.

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Offline matterry

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2016, 02:17:00 pm »
"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" is a constitutional principle of English law — an essential freedom of the ordinary citizen. The converse principle — "everything which is not allowed is forbidden" — applies to public authorities, whose actions are limited to the powers explicitly granted to them by law.

Copied from Wikipedia.

So as an ordinary citizen CROW covers me for caving. DEFRA and NRW have to say otherwise.

Online droid

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2016, 02:50:08 pm »
And so we revert to the norm 'my opinion is bigger than your opinion'

Capn Chris hit the nail on the head.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline royfellows

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2016, 03:08:30 pm »
DEFRA and NRW are unlikely to change their stance on this as interpretation of CROW as to cover caving would require enforcement which would undoubtedly lead to a prosecution, which would be your test case, expensive for all parties and in the event it went against them would leave them with egg on their faces.

"So as an ordinary citizen CROW covers me for caving. DEFRA and NRW have to say otherwise."

Well they have done haven't they, It really boils down whether the landowner says otherwise.

This whole thing is like magic roundabout
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2016, 03:47:48 pm »
DEFRA and NRW are unlikely to change their stance on this as interpretation of CROW as to cover caving would require enforcement which would undoubtedly lead to a prosecution, which would be your test case, expensive for all parties and in the event it went against them would leave them with egg on their faces.

"So as an ordinary citizen CROW covers me for caving. DEFRA and NRW have to say otherwise."

Well they have done haven't they,

Defra have said that you can enter caves for a distance.

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2016, 04:03:05 pm »


Defra have said that you can enter caves for a distance.

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

Tend to agree with this sentiment, but there's no need to gob off about it as if its a God (or Government) given right. (not you Simon, all them others :))
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2016, 04:13:51 pm »


Defra have said that you can enter caves for a distance.

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

Tend to agree with this sentiment, but there's no need to gob off about it as if its a God (or Government) given right. (not you Simon, all them others :))

Sorry? You've lost me.

Has it not just been demonstrated that the pro-crow campaign is being conducted in a well-considered and diplomatic fashion by eloquent people? I haven't heard anybody "gobbing off".

Online Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2016, 04:21:35 pm »
Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs.  :furious:

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2016, 04:30:11 pm »
DEFRA and NRW are unlikely to change their stance on this as interpretation of CROW as to cover caving would require enforcement which would undoubtedly lead to a prosecution :lol:


Question is, who is likely to risk the expenditure to bring a prosecution?, doubt it'll be a caver, doubt it'll be a landowner, DEFRA are answerable for expenditure - Who is likely to be the 'aggrieved party'?? one can argue that the law has been broken, that will involve the CPS, who will look into the case very deeply before initiating proceedings. With a QC's analysis on our side, I suspect the CPS would avoid involvement.
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