Author Topic: VIP caving trip to GG - press release  (Read 16897 times)

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2016, 04:35:59 pm »
Which law will have been broken? Trespass is, I believe, a civil offence.

Nothing to do with the CPS.

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2016, 04:39:35 pm »


Defra have said that you can enter caves for a distance.

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

Tend to agree with this sentiment, but there's no need to gob off about it as if its a God (or Government) given right. (not you Simon, all them others :))

Sorry? You've lost me.

Has it not just been demonstrated that the pro-crow campaign is being conducted in a well-considered and diplomatic fashion by eloquent people? I haven't heard anybody "gobbing off".

Sorry Simon, you misunderstood, I was referring to those on other threads who appear to brag about pirating.
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Offline royfellows

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2016, 04:41:53 pm »
DEFRA and NRW are unlikely to change their stance on this as interpretation of CROW as to cover caving would require enforcement which would undoubtedly lead to a prosecution :lol:


Question is, who is likely to risk the expenditure to bring a prosecution?, doubt it'll be a caver, doubt it'll be a landowner, DEFRA are answerable for expenditure - Who is likely to be the 'aggrieved party'?? one can argue that the law has been broken, that will involve the CPS, who will look into the case very deeply before initiating proceedings. With a QC's analysis on our side, I suspect the CPS would avoid involvement.

The relevant statutory body to enforce by ultimately prosecuting as a last resort. We are taking here about CROW being enforced in the event that the statutory body perceived it as granting a right of access to the underground. A landowner who refused access regardless would be the defendant and would then challenge that interpretation of CROW as a defence. I would have thought that this was clear.

The CPS would not be involved, it would be the statutory body which brought the prosecution. Statutory bodies can bring criminal prosecutions, as can private individuals for that matter, although methinks that this is not widely known.

Something there to think about, if you can all think that far. (This comment addressed to all not Mr Bograt)
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Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2016, 04:47:48 pm »
Which law will have been broken? Trespass is, I believe, a civil offence.

Nothing to do with the CPS.

So that brings it back to the landowner prosecuting for trespass on (or under) open access land?.
I was considering the law relating to CROW being contravened.
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Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2016, 04:48:35 pm »
Sorry Roy, posts crossed!.
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Offline royfellows

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2016, 04:57:12 pm »
Sorry Roy, posts crossed!.

Your OK mate.

Just for the record, I have personal opinions on the CROW debate, good thing or bad thing, which are balanced in that I perceive some advantage, but also some negative.
However, the legal arguments are a different thing, as often stated that things in life are rarely as we would like them to be.

This business will not be settled in a timely manner and its pursuit through the legal system will make the lawyers the only overall winners.
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Offline droid

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2016, 05:32:34 pm »

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

This is exactly what I mean about 'opinions'.

Contrast with Roy's entirely factual statements.
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Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2016, 05:41:31 pm »
Cheers Roy, must admit, personally, I'm a bit ambivalent about the issue as well, very few popular holes up here in the Peak District will be affected, however, DCA have given themselves a mandate to support the BCA ballot decision so I'm trying my best to keep the debate civilised and on course...
 The cave database initiated by Jenny Potts should give us some indication of the more affected regions, this really needs getting on with!
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2016, 07:02:27 pm »
I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs.  :furious:

I suspect you might be right.
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Offline ah147

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2016, 07:45:32 pm »

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs.  :furious:

I suspect you might be right.

Seconded


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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2016, 08:14:10 pm »
Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs.  :furious:

Can you name one with a major landowner on access land?

Offline ah147

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2016, 09:01:03 pm »
OFD.


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Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2016, 06:30:45 am »
Drws Cefn  :o

Offline badger

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2016, 04:28:15 pm »
I agree with roy, have mixed feelings some good some bad,
however if it ever came to court I feel that defra have muddied the waters in favour of the cavers already.
 yes you can cave to the limit of natural light. No Crow does not apply to caving, even they not sure, the statement to me is a bit perverse, surely its one or the other.
 then if action was brought against the caver they would then have to prove you went beyond this point, you could have been having a tea party at this point so be several hours, (unlikely but got to be proved otherwise)
 or in the case of alum pot, you went via dolly tubs you could argue you was going into the light, and if you go in via diccan entrance how much of the cave is beyond natural light 30 metres maybe (don't know exactly but know its not that long)?
 all a bit grey

Offline Alex

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2016, 07:46:07 pm »
All I know is I will be brining lots of mirrors on my next trip to reflect the light, so I am in day light. Another question is though, what happens when it goes dark? Its all a bit stupid really.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline badger

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2016, 08:51:33 pm »
All I know is I will be brining lots of mirrors on my next trip to reflect the light, so I am in day light. Another question is though, what happens when it goes dark? Its all a bit stupid really.

my point, the very idea is idiotic, and the fact that defra has made this statement it is 50% of the way there to saying crow applies.
how would that look in a court of law, no crow does not apply, but it does apply to go into an entrance series until no natural light :-\ :shrug:

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2016, 09:17:37 pm »
I don't think they have firmly said that the extent of daylight is the limit. The way I understand it, they are very vague about how far you can go. Let's hold back from saying this is stupid and just accept it as a perfectly reasonable position. What they have said, in effect, is that you can go into caves for an unspecified distance. I'm happy with that.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 09:37:46 pm by Simon Wilson »

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2016, 09:26:43 pm »
The words used by NE are “..my view is that open caves on the side of mountains etc would carry the CROW rights of open-air recreation, because they are in effect in the open air.”.