Author Topic: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?  (Read 10835 times)

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2016, 08:42:06 am »
I've been following this debate with great interest, and I'm very much in the  pro-CRoW for caving. OK, some folks get a bit hot under the collar, but there's nothing wrong in being passionate about the subject. Unless the moderators have removed posts, there's nothing I've seen on here that could really be construed as overly unpleasant and confrontational. If people get offended then they can't do much surfing of internet forums!

I do wonder though, why the antis cannot just accept the decision of the majority and why they persistently niggle away. It does them no credit at all.
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Offline Madness

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2016, 09:26:08 am »
As you go through life you come across people who are just 'argumentative'.

They'll argue their case till the cows come home and continue long after most have got bored with the subject. They'll do almost anything to prove themselves right and won't listen to the other side of the argument.

While these people exist in the world we will have debates/arguments like this.

As for people not coming on ukcaving because of the CRoW debate? I think that's bollocks! They don't have to read every thread. It's quite easy to ignore threads that don't interest you.



Offline Pegasus

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2016, 09:30:18 am »
Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?

It's a shame to hear some people are deterred from using UKC, that is however their choice....fortunately more cavers than ever are not deterred from using UKC.  I get to see the stats and the number of visitors to the forum is increasing steadily all of the time.  So that's good news isn't it  ;D



Online The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2016, 10:33:28 am »
As was said its an emotional response thing. I know of several caves now closed here in the SW purely because the landowners fear future loss of control over access to their property. Best to close it down now in case the site gets scheduled in some way or future access control is taken away from the landowner. Maybe it is a regional issue. We dont have many huge grouse moors down here. We have lots of private farmland with public rights of way. Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.

So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :weep:

Online Badlad

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2016, 10:38:30 am »


So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :weep:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=18285.msg257968;topicseen#new

Any news from Reservoir Hole?

Online danthecavingman

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2016, 10:44:40 am »
As far as I am aware, UKCaving is not an online parliamentary committee enquiry where we are obliged to attend and be bullied into answering questions. I see no need to reply to questions personally directed at me in such a manner. Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?

Peter, if that's directed at me then I resent the implication that I'm a bully and have deterred others from visiting the forum. I just asked a question. No you don't have to answer it but don't drag me down in the murk as you evade it with yet more inflammatory and exaggerated nonsense. Yes, it's just a forum.
 I'm not going to comment further on CROW and caving. I've explained my stance several times and support the push to have caving included in the scope of the act.

Dan.
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Online The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2016, 10:51:55 am »


So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :weep:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=18285.msg257968;topicseen#new

Any news from Reservoir Hole?

Off topic but not really. The cave has just reopened for trip bookings.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2016, 11:33:01 am »
So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :weep:

Why are trip reports, photo's etc used as some sort of metric? I thought the idea was to enjoy ourselves underground. If people *like* taking pictures etc, then fine, have at it, but they shouldn't feel there is some obligation.
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Online Badlad

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2016, 11:34:47 am »
For interest;

Last October I did a quick calc on how much the CRoW debate had been discussed on Ukcaving.  I reported those figures to a BCA Council meeting to demonstrate the amount the subject had been debated among cavers.  So, in the last ten years (up to October 2015 - more now obviously)

There had been 35 specific topics raised on CRoW and caving.

This had generated 4481 posts

Those posts received a total of 235,510 views.

So this debate has been around since ukcaving began.  It is an immensely popular topic of debate.  However if you have had enough of it there are plenty of other topics to read and contribute to.  :thumbsup:

Offline royfellows

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2016, 12:05:58 pm »
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!

Impartial comment.

Cornwall is different to other areas in that the Duchy of Cornwall own most of the mineral rights, and therefore the mines.
Looking forward to NAMHO 2019. www.cambrianmines.co.uk

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2016, 12:15:04 pm »


So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :weep:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=18285.msg257968;topicseen#new

Any news from Reservoir Hole?

No but I could tell you about our project. It's on Leck Fell and apparently there's some sort of closed season or something. I don't know if that will mean there are fewer cars in the parking places but I doubt it. Anyway, whatever the closed season is it has nothing to do with access land which gives us all the access we need.

Online bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2016, 02:32:45 pm »
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!

Impartial comment.

Cornwall is different to other areas in that the Duchy of Cornwall own most of the mineral rights, and therefore the mines.

And they're related to the duchy of Lancaster who allow BCRA to manage access to Peak Cavern.
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Online bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2016, 02:43:13 pm »
I know of several caves now closed here in the SW purely because the landowners fear future loss of control over access to their property. Best to close it down now in case the site gets scheduled in some way or future access control is taken away from the landowner. Maybe it is a regional issue. We dont have many huge grouse moors down here. We have lots of private farmland with public rights of way. Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.


The subject of this debate is existing CRoW land, so access control has already been lost to the landowner, if it is private farm land then it is likely to be classed as 'improved land', so does not come within the remit of CRoW, this line of reasoning does not apply, maybe this should be pointed out to these landowners?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 03:03:17 pm by bograt »
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Online bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2016, 03:10:54 pm »
Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.


I suspect that it is not this issue that is putting the discovery of caves at risk, digging, etc. will still require landowners co-operation whether the decision is for or against.
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Offline David Rose

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2016, 04:13:29 pm »
Enough airy-fair what-if speculation, already. The time has come to sort this issue out in court. Though if that happens, how will Peter Burgess ever fill his days?

Online bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2016, 04:24:53 pm »
Enough airy-fair what-if speculation, already. The time has come to sort this issue out in court. Though if that happens, how will Peter Burgess ever fill his days?

Steady on that one David, I feel there is still a lot of space for education and persuasion, Peter has already been debated into a corner (Quote - "I am not going to discuss this"). I await the next challenge!--
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2016, 04:42:52 pm »
.. The time has come to sort this issue out in court.

I really don't think that will ever happen. There is a quiet revolution taking place which is slowly overwhelming this issue like the tide rising and dissolving a sandcastle. As more cavers realize that we have right of access and at the same time realize that the landowners are not the least bit bothered the issue will become irrelevant and be forgotten. Stop talking and just go caving.

Online droid

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2016, 05:02:59 pm »
Wish I could see into the future with such clarity.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2016, 05:13:19 pm »
Stop talking and just go caving.

I've read these recent CROW threads with great interest. Very entertaining.

This is the first time one of them has turned sensible.

Online The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2016, 07:37:40 pm »
Yup, rightly jarred off and bored by the whole issue. Three caving trips next week thank God.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2016, 07:42:38 pm »
Ok let's make something clear. I have better things to do with my time than to answer complex questions with a simple "yes or no" answer, because it is not possible to do this. I will not be tied up in knots as some try to "debate me into a corner". What a ridiculous phrase. Ask simple questions if you want simple answers. The only reason I post on the access topics is to attempt a modicum of balance and to remind people that there are issues with what is being campaigned for that should not be ignored. I will not be intimidated by anybody into leaving the topic alone. If I have genuine concerns, then what is the problem with airing them? Pitlamp and Cookie appear to do much the same thing, in their own way. I do things my way. If you are offended then it isn't down to any attempt at offence on my part. Perhaps your own sensibilities need attention - I honestly don't know.

And I have spent today enjoying working for my club. Far better things to do, I am sure you all agree.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:56:25 pm by Peter Burgess »

Offline menacer

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2016, 09:37:29 pm »
Wish I could see into the future with such clarity.....

Well if such crystall ball ever existed, we'd all know which party to vote for every 5 years and which way to vote re brexit..... at least we live in a democratic society where we can debate a choice rather than have it imposed...
Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline Madness

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2016, 10:31:45 pm »

Off topic but not really. The cave has just reopened for trip bookings.

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver! ;)

Online Aubrey

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2016, 12:18:13 am »

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver! ;)

Some caves are special and need special measures to conserve them.
- look at what happened in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink.
make more cave - we have the technology!

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2016, 08:02:17 am »

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver! ;)

Some caves are special and need special measures to conserve them.
- look at what happened in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink.

But then you have the people that want to gate *everything* (There are/were a few on here). Some places *do* need gating, but they are very few and far between. If you gate up every single cave with a bit of stal in it, apart from a few token sacrificial caves, no-one is going anywhere without permission forms signed in triplicate or knowing the funny handshake that the gatekeepers prefer.
Permission? Wassat den?