Author Topic: More media - an alternative view  (Read 8980 times)

Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 01:01:55 pm »
Hmmm Seems Graham is trying to rubbish the referendum on the basis of turnout, but it still remains the best yardstick of caver opinion available. In addition he states the act will not provide protection for sensitive sites. So what is section 26 all about and why does he think it spineless?

It also seems some Mendip Cavers are now campaigning to maintain the status quo via an MP, if they are members of BCA should they be censured for acting against the mandate and BCA policy? If it is CSCC against the BCA then the rift is even worse - perhaps they should cede from BCA?

We keep hearing how CRoW calarification in favour of access will reduce access to Mendip caves, but we have not been told of any specifics - just vague rumours and dark hints. Put up or shut please

Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2016, 02:48:01 pm »
Some more media... "Darkness Below" has published an editorial by Linda Wilson, essentially the BCA should ignore the referendum and return to rolling over in front of the landowners, all resistance is futile and no progress will ever be made...

Offline ALEXW

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2016, 03:03:44 pm »
I think Linda Wilson talks sense. "Surely it’s time for cavers to put aside their differences and work on strengthening relationships with each other and with landowners."

If we need a "favourable" interpretation of the Crow act to allow us to access caves against the landowners wishes, surely those same landowners would be disinclined to allow us to do the things that require their permission, digging for example.

Be careful what you wish for...

Offline tellmeagainstupid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2016, 03:05:19 pm »
Have just read the article in The Wells Journal which in no way indicates unlike in its online copy that Nigel Taylor as Mendip Cave Rescues longest serving HERO is speaking as an individual and not representing the views of Mendip Cave Rescue. Which is it ??????? Don't think Mendip Cavers will be welcome in the dales anytime soon

Offline Madness

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 03:14:40 pm »
Don't think Mendip Cavers will be welcome in the dales anytime soon

It's not 'Mendip Cavers', 'Southern Cavers' or 'whatever cavers'. It's just a minority from all parts who want to go against what was democratically decided.


Offline jasonbirder

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2016, 03:20:35 pm »
I agree with Linda Wilson
Quote
Surely it’s time for cavers to put aside their differences

Indeed...and accept the wishes of the majority...and stop trying to derail a process which has a huge mandate

Offline Madness

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2016, 03:35:44 pm »
What all these anti CRoW articles seem to omit is the fact that the BCA held a poll and the majority of it's members voted on this course of action. i think it's call 'selective reporting'

Offline badger

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2016, 05:16:20 pm »
and relax, I think the wells journal and the comments made where either interpretated incorrectly or twisted, the suggestion of a small number of cavers is obviously incorrect as the BCA vote can show.
however to say CSCC is anti crow cannot be right, CSCC can only act as it member clubs decide, and in the case of the CSCC it decided against. not sure on the vote but possibly some clubs voted in favour of crow.
now whether all cscc club reps canvassed their membership or just voted their own opinion I cannot say, only they and their clubs would be able to answer that one.
however I think the biggest issue is the regional difference, although mendip is not the only caving area in the south it is the major one, and where access/permit is required it is very easy. this cannot have been said of the dales, although much has been done to address this, but the dales is still restrictive on who can have permits and have possibly a higher % of caves reactive to water making a decision to cave when one should not.

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2016, 05:34:52 pm »
The pro-CRoW majority are occupying the moral high ground and the anti-CRoW minority are continuing with dirty tricks and lies.

For someone that regards themselves as a technical 'expert' that is a gross generalisation.

I resent it being said that I indulge in 'dirty tricks and lies' If you mean one individual then have the balls to name them. Don't label all those that don't follow your particular path as tricksters and liars.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2016, 05:44:59 pm »
The pro-CRoW majority are occupying the moral high ground and the anti-CRoW minority are continuing with dirty tricks and lies.

For someone that regards themselves as a technical 'expert' that is a gross generalisation.

I resent it being said that I indulge in 'dirty tricks and lies' If you mean one individual then have the balls to name them. Don't label all those that don't follow your particular path as tricksters and liars.

I'll bite.

Peter Burgess, Graham Mullen, Tony Brocklebank.

The kindest can be said is deliberate disinformation, "dirty tricks" is not a stretch by any means. Yourself and others are cautions, fair enough. Those 3 are out to scupper the whole thing at any cost.
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Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2016, 06:02:01 pm »
You, at least NewStuff, have the balls to say things direct. Simon hasn't.

I might strongly disagree with a lot of what you say, but at least you don't faff about. Props.

Whatever respect I had for Simon's comments evaporated about 10 minutes ago. He and Jackalpup need to realise that 'I'm right , you're wrong and a c**t for disagreeing with me' is not a very productive debating technique.

*Note to Pegasus/Badlad: sorry for the negativity, but there are certain things that get my goat. Being called a liar and a trickster is one of them.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2016, 06:07:34 pm »
And naming people, whether me or not, when the person doing it  cries to mummy whenever he is named here. Utter hypocrisy. At least I will respect his wish not to be named, but even so, more and more people do know who he is.

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2016, 06:16:04 pm »
The problem is not so much naming as the broad-brush labelling of *anyone* not following the 'CRoW as caving Nirvana' line as liars and tricksters.

I have the greatest respect for those named. I might not agree with everything they post but they can be argued with in a reasonable manner. NewStuff, for all his aggression, at least says what he thinks and doesn't creep round people.

That can't be said of all in this discussion.

Simon has definitely upped the ante on this one.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2016, 06:18:08 pm »
Can't POSSIBLY be the reason why people leave this place?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2016, 06:20:31 pm »
Regarding the Linda Wilson piece - there are important facts and answers in it that are not being addressed or are being deliberately ignored. Perhaps people are seeing what they want to see and not reading with enough care.

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2016, 06:21:42 pm »
One of my main tenets on the web, is not to say anything on line I wouldn't say face to face.

Other's mileage might differ. Someone calls me a liar to my face and they get a reaction, not necessarily the one they anticipate.

Your comment RE Linda's piece is entirely valid.
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Offline paul

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2016, 06:44:06 pm »
Global Moderator Comment Either stick to reasoned argument and stop the personal bickering or, as on other occasions, this thread will be locked.
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Offline badger

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2016, 06:58:11 pm »
the bickering is very tiresome.
sometimes in this world we all have to agree to disagree
regardless to peoples views and whether we agree with them or not things should stay civil and respectful.
I personally disagree with a lot of the lets say cautious crow people, some more than others I think have been quite antagonistic.
as is some of the pro crow people have been quite aggressive
at the end of the day these people are always going to disagree
personally I would like Badlad/Pegasus to lock all crow debates anytime one is started unless by badlad as information, and to be fair has always posted negative articles as well

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2016, 07:03:39 pm »
Calling people liars and tricksters is hardly civil or respectful.

Since being taken off pre-mod, I have tried to be reasonable. That will continue forthwith.

But I'm not letting puerile accusations like that lie....
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Offline royfellows

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2016, 07:07:28 pm »
I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.
Looking forward to NAMHO 2019. www.cambrianmines.co.uk

Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2016, 07:18:24 pm »
I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.
I am not "younger people" but I have a great interest in mines and mine exploration - it is what fired my enthusiasm and carried on my interest through the years. Sadly many out and out cavers find mines dirty gritty unpleasent places with no interest for them. Geologists, historians, and other types seem to show much greater affinity. Once my current health picks up and life allows I hope to delve in mines that are new and puzzling to me - I may even get a new wetsuit!  :o So much better than bickering over the endless politics that gets in the way of going underground. I am sure I am suffering from a lack of radon and cave/mine water bathing - it is making me irritable and erroding my tolerance. I must do better... Better times will come

Offline NewStuff

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2016, 07:42:32 pm »
And naming people, whether me or not, when the person doing it  cries to mummy whenever he is named here. Utter hypocrisy. At least I will respect his wish not to be named, but even so, more and more people do know who he is.

Given that the people in question are all able to use their own names quite freely, you're doing that apples and oranges thing again. I can't, it's not something I have a choice in either. If you all want to meet and mutter my name in a room, have at it, my employer's policy doesn't cover that.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Are there any concerns that have *not* been discussed here that are raised on that other site? Valid ones, not "might someday happen if all the planets and moons are in alignment".
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2016, 08:05:41 pm »
Quote
the broad-brush labelling of *anyone* not following the 'CRoW as caving Nirvana' line as liars and tricksters

No-one really wants to see this...I've been as guilty as anyone of posting in the heat of the moment...but over-all I would try and say here what I'd say in the pub or the hut!

BUT surely the major issue and the reason for the bickering and heated emotions...is that here we are - a year after the CRoW referendum and in one corner we have people ranging from those still debating it...urging caution, discussion and debate to those who ARE using "dirty tricks" (I don't thinks its unfair to call using administrative protocols and beauracratic nuances to try and halt a democratically mandated decision "dirty tricks")

The time for debate is OVER...that horse has bolted...both sides made their argument...put forward the pro's of their case and pointed out the holes in their opponents - it was then subject to an inclusive and honourable referendum and a decision arose...

Its time for everyone to get behind that decision...and to support the actions that need to be made...there really is NO alternative...for the BCA not to follow through with its push to ensure CRoW is recognised after such a decisive vote would ridicule its role as the representative of UK Caving...and call its whole existence into question...

If the vote had gone against CRoW - we'd have had to suck it up...and those that felt strongly enough would have had to take their campaign outside the BCA...

The same applies...anti's need to accept the wish of the members...if there are those still involved with the BCA that can't do that...fair enough...but take your rearguard action against YOUR OWN members outside the BCA...it seems wrong in the extreme that you can be vocally anti-CRoW and still able to vote on the Council or be a member of any committee when the members voted FOR and want to see action FOR CRoW access

It would be like being a UKIP MEP and campaigning in favour of voting YES in the Euro-referendum


Offline Pegasus

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2016, 10:34:17 pm »
I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

Please don't have second thoughts, Roy.  UKC are actively trying to support and encourage younger cavers - plans are afoot for CHECC 2016 for example.  Ok so the past few days has seen some heated debate, however over the past couple of years, the atmosphere on UKC has improved greatly and the site is busier than ever.

Cheers, Jane




Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2016, 05:08:26 am »
Jason: the time for debate is *never* over.

Debating potential problems (including those the pro's might have had sorted before the referendum) is legitimate. Debate on a forum or through the media isn't going to stop the campaign going forward. It might however, give those driving the Campaign food for thought. Or not.

Trying to stifle debate is the antithesis of 'democracy'.
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