Author Topic: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?  (Read 16266 times)

Online PeteHall

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2016, 11:18:36 am »
Apparently it takes 6 months or more to get a Section 26 order in place and in these times of austerity there are no resources to process the applications.
If previously controlled caves were suddenly opened up to free access there is the possibility of a lot of damage before a section 26 order could be put in place.
I have seen it stated here, but can't remember where, that a temporary order can be put in place while the Section 26 is being processed. This would make sense and I can't see why any caver would object to that, in cases where there is a genuine need to control access for conservation.

I do sometimes wonder if DEFRA's stance on CRoW is influenced by a desire to avoid a lot of work.
That would seem to be the only logical reason!
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2016, 11:24:25 am »
Apparently it takes 6 months or more to get a Section 26 order in place and in these times of austerity there are no resources to process the applications.
If previously controlled caves were suddenly opened up to free access there is the possibility of a lot of damage before a section 26 order could be put in place.

I do sometimes wonder if DEFRA's stance on CRoW is influenced by a desire to avoid a lot of work.
As I recall, when CRoW came in in 2005, temporary Directions were issued to cover the period whilst consultations took place.  As I understood it, the view from NE was that whilst they consider CRoW does not cover caves, they can't issue a Direction or do any work so it is a classic Catch 22 situation.  It just requires some work up front possibly aided by cavers to ensure the applications are in and things are ready before the formal switch of opinion takes place. 

And that includes BCA having formulated an opinion on an appropriate test to determine whether a cave should have a Direction as no doubt BCA would become one of the formal national consultees.  No doubt there should also be some other ground work done with potential objectors, Local Access Forums, what type of restrictions would be put in place and so on.  Yes there is work to be done but it is difficult to get the go ahead to do it when people are still bogged down with aspects thought to have been resolved by the referendum.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2016, 11:51:32 am »
All I can say is that if you leave important issues to be dealt with by third parties, it won't be done as quickly as you can do it yourself, which is why messing about and relying on legislation is the wrong thing to do. Sensible protection of sites with consent of immediate involved parties has always been the best way to do things. Messing about with Right of Access etc etc is just not going to cut the mustard when something needs doing urgently.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2016, 12:06:42 pm »
Are people suggesting, that 12 months after the most extensive and expensive referendum in BCA history...and a clear mandate in favour of ensuring CRoW legislation applies to caving...
That because of questions over section 26 - then that should be IGNORED?

By all means lets see what can be done with section 26 - but lets get moving on CRoW and not have another "speedbump" in the road...

Because we ALL know...that if we mess about with this issue...sure as apples are apples - the people that object "because they care about conservation" will be back objecting "because they care about digging" or "because they worry about Landowner relations" "are unsure about insurance Implications or "Bats" or whatever the objection du jour is...

Funnily enough...in most cases...the objections change...but the objectors stay the same...

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2016, 12:20:14 pm »
I am providing a reason why adoption of CRoW for cave access may not be the Nirvana that JB and his pals seem to think it will be. Be prepared for problems, and ones that won't be easy to resolve. And won't be problems caused by me or by anyone else, but by the new "system".

Offline Aubrey

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2016, 12:20:23 pm »

As I recall, when CRoW came in in 2005, temporary Directions were issued to cover the period whilst consultations took place. 


Where can we find out more about the availability and processes for temporary Directions?

 
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Offline crickleymal

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2016, 12:24:10 pm »
I thought this was supposed to be a simple question about caves on access land  :shrug:
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2016, 12:29:26 pm »
The answer was a very simple - lots of small sites, but very few major cave systems...(Possibly as few as 2 depending on your definition)

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2016, 12:30:39 pm »
Why does it matter how large a cave is? Really, why?

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2016, 12:35:03 pm »
For the obvious reason that more Foxes and Badgers than Cavers are likely to visit for example Beetle Drop

Offline cavermark

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2016, 12:35:18 pm »
All I can say is that if you leave important issues to be dealt with by third parties, it won't be done as quickly as you can do it yourself, which is why messing about and relying on legislation is the wrong thing to do. Sensible protection of sites with consent of immediate involved parties has always been the best way to do things. Messing about with Right of Access etc etc is just not going to cut the mustard when something needs doing urgently.

It may not be possible to do things as quickly when involving third parties - BUT IT CAN BE DONE.  So the problem has a SOLUTION  :beer2: :clap2: - it may not appear as effective for some sites as keeping the status quo, but it is a COMPROMISE that enables the enormous benefits of the changes to be reaped in other areas.

Perhaps BCA will provide help and resources to people making the applications - thus speeding them up as much as possible. 
 

Offline Madness

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2016, 12:40:38 pm »
I've only taken interest in the CRoW issue over the last couple on months, I wasn't on UK Caving until just before the vote and I've not retrospectively read all the posts relating to it. Before and after the vote, how much time and effort has been spent talking to 'the CRoW cautious' in an attempt to lesson their fears? Has the BCA organised any meetings whereby all parties could sit around a table and discuss things amicably? Most situations can be resolved if aposing sides are prepared to talk.
Being sucessful in the reforendum, shouldn't be the end of talking.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2016, 12:42:39 pm »
For the obvious reason that more Foxes and Badgers than Cavers are likely to visit for example Beetle Drop
I suggest, if you haven't done so, that you visit Mendip and take the trouble to visit some of the well-preserved and protected small caves, before deciding what is best for them, and for Mendip as a whole. To divide caves simply into either badgers' toilets or large spectacular systems is not helpful.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2016, 12:47:34 pm »
Oh, and for the best ones you will probably have to get in touch with someone to let you in. Which is probably why they are still in good nick and of immense interest.

Offline Madness

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2016, 12:52:32 pm »
Why does it matter how large a cave is? Really, why?

The size of a cave isn't important. But how 'important' a cave is in the mind of cavers is.

As I don't know the Mendip are at all caving wise, I was trying to find out how many caves in Mendip would possibly be effected - And I don't mean shallow scrapings that are full of badger shit that the average caver doesn't know exists.

Basically, I'm after relevant facts.

I'm still not sure if it's 2 or 4 caves that would be effected.




Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2016, 12:59:53 pm »
All I can say is that if you leave important issues to be dealt with by third parties, it won't be done as quickly as you can do it yourself, which is why messing about and relying on legislation is the wrong thing to do. Sensible protection of sites with consent of immediate involved parties has always been the best way to do things. Messing about with Right of Access etc etc is just not going to cut the mustard when something needs doing urgently.

It may not be possible to do things as quickly when involving third parties - BUT IT CAN BE DONE.  So the problem has a SOLUTION  :beer2: :clap2: - it may not appear as effective for some sites as keeping the status quo, but it is a COMPROMISE that enables the enormous benefits of the changes to be reaped in other areas.

Perhaps BCA will provide help and resources to people making the applications - thus speeding them up as much as possible. 
 
Please explain to us all how it is possible to speed up a statutory consultation period of several months?

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2016, 01:03:33 pm »
Quote
Please explain to us all how it is possible to speed up a statutory consultation period of several months?

I don't know...
Nor do I know whether so-called "Dark matter" exists in Super-Massive Black Holes or in an unknown form of atomic particle...
But I DO KNOW...neither question has much bearing on a Referendum that's already been taken...and a policy that has already been mandated...

Offline cavermark

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2016, 01:21:34 pm »
All I can say is that if you leave important issues to be dealt with by third parties, it won't be done as quickly as you can do it yourself, which is why messing about and relying on legislation is the wrong thing to do. Sensible protection of sites with consent of immediate involved parties has always been the best way to do things. Messing about with Right of Access etc etc is just not going to cut the mustard when something needs doing urgently.

It may not be possible to do things as quickly when involving third parties - BUT IT CAN BE DONE.  So the problem has a SOLUTION  :beer2: :clap2: - it may not appear as effective for some sites as keeping the status quo, but it is a COMPROMISE that enables the enormous benefits of the changes to be reaped in other areas.

Perhaps BCA will provide help and resources to people making the applications - thus speeding them up as much as possible. 
 
Please explain to us all how it is possible to speed up a statutory consultation period of several months?

I meant speeding up the form filling before the consultation period and providing all necessary information to prevent further delays. Perhaps with the assistance of people familiar with the process who have gone through the process before.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2016, 01:28:59 pm »
It was a trick question. You can't shorten a statutory consultation period.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2016, 01:31:51 pm »
Why does it matter how large a cave is? Really, why?

The size of a cave isn't important. But how 'important' a cave is in the mind of cavers is.

As I don't know the Mendip are at all caving wise, I was trying to find out how many caves in Mendip would possibly be effected - And I don't mean shallow scrapings that are full of badger shit that the average caver doesn't know exists.

Basically, I'm after relevant facts.

I'm still not sure if it's 2 or 4 caves that would be effected.
I imagine there are many more than that, small and large. Mostly what racing snakes would consider pointless and irrelevant, but badger shit often hides archaeology, for example. A list has been compiled, affected caves that is, but not by me.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2016, 02:05:03 pm »
It was a trick question. You can't shorten a statutory consultation period.
To be pedantic it is only a consultation.  The requirement is laid down in statutory guidance issued under Sec 33.  The time period is also an NE intent not a legally imposed requirement.  It also has weasel words which allow them to take longer - as happened in the example I read up on.  (Unfortunately the LAF seem to have given up their web site form which I got the detail so I can't reference it.)  Please don't mislead people.

For those who wish to read more, I believe the NE postion is given at http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140304112715/http:/www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/RAG%20V4%20for%20website_tcm6-12375.pdf and NRW at https://naturalresources.wales/media/1173/how-to-use-restrictions-templated-1.pdf.

I can't be bothered to look but I think you will find this aspect was discussed on this forum around October 2014.

Offline cavermark

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2016, 02:26:51 pm »
It was a trick question. You can't shorten a statutory consultation period.

No, but you can prevent it being lengthened. (Which is what I was suggesting. In a straightforward manner. Not trying to trick anyone to distract from a valid point being made).

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2016, 02:29:46 pm »
No I realise that - no worries.

Offline cavermark

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2016, 02:33:01 pm »
Oh, and for the best ones you will probably have to get in touch with someone to let you in. Which is probably why they are still in good nick and of immense interest.
Returning to the theme of the original post...
How many of these sites requiring someone to let you in are on access land?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2016, 02:38:40 pm »
A list has been compiled, affected caves that is, but not by me.
And I don't have it.