Author Topic: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?  (Read 14925 times)

Offline JasonC

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2018, 09:26:42 am »
Fulk - you may come to regret poking a stick into this hornet's nest....  :)

But I think the argument is that a landowner on Access land is less likely to grant permission to dig if s/he knows that any finds will attract extra traffic from cavers who have  a right to access rather than having to seek the landowner's permission.

Personally, I'm not convinced of the strength of this argument - some landowners may react like this, others won't, no doubt it will depend on personalities of all involved - nor are the majority of the BCA, hence our current position.

But whether or not the BCA's position on CRoW turns out to be a good or bad thing, it doesn't excuse the sort of nasty personal attacks Badlad describes - shame on those responsible!

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2018, 09:40:01 am »
it doesn't excuse the sort of nasty personal attacks Badlad describes - shame on those responsible!
Agree with that, Jason.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2018, 09:58:06 am »
Because they worry that it will stop cavers being able to dig (how many landowners are going to be happy giving permission when they know it might increase the number of people accessing their land).
I am surprised that no one has yet pointed out that paragraph 1(l) of Schedule 2 of the CRoW Act explicitly prohibits persons from “intentionally removes, damages or destroys any plant, shrub, tree or root or any part of a plant, shrub, tree or root,”.  So that effectively stops any digging on CRoW access land without getting permission.  Mikem’s concern applies equally to any prospective cave location whether it be on or off CRoW access land.

Offline Fulk

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #178 on: January 18, 2018, 09:59:35 am »
Thank you Jason for clarifying that point.

Offline Rhys

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #179 on: January 18, 2018, 10:07:18 am »
Fulk - you may come to regret poking a stick into this hornet's nest....  :)

But I think the argument is that a landowner on Access land is less likely to grant permission to dig if s/he knows that any finds will attract extra traffic from cavers who have  a right to access rather than having to seek the landowner's permission.

Personally, I'm not convinced of the strength of this argument - some landowners may react like this, others won't, no doubt it will depend on personalities of all involved - nor are the majority of the BCA, hence our current position.

I was always of the view that if a landowner allows digging, they won't be bothered about general caver access - after all, the disruption and mess is often more during digging that the routine tourist visits that follow. I voted for CROW to be recognised for caving on that basis.

What we're seeing at the new Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen is a worrying development which I think is potentially damaging to the hopes of CROW ever being recognised for caving. Some cavers have been asserting on the forum that this new hole, which was covertly dug without permission, now has a right of access attached to it thanks to CROW. Surely this couldn't be what the law was intended for? Effectively, it means that you can dig anywhere you please on CROW land without permission and once the hole is open, the landowner can do nothing about it. There seems to be a legal absurdity here. We've all been told that CROW doesn't give a right to dig, but in practice that seems to be the outcome here.

[all this is of course ignoring the protected monument issue, which is a further complication!]

Rhys

Offline rhychydwr1

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2018, 10:36:05 am »
Congratulations! Eight pages on a none topic.  Does it really matter if Linda Wilson is BCA Legal Officer or not.  It will not effect me.  I will still go caving regardless. My only claim to fame is that Linda called me a "fuckwit".   :o

Offline alastairgott

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #181 on: January 18, 2018, 11:01:40 am »
Eight pages on a none topic.

 Must be a difference in the size of your pages, I've only got four pages here.
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2018, 11:11:06 am »
What we're seeing at the new Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen is a worrying development which I think is potentially damaging to the hopes of CROW ever being recognised for caving. Some cavers have been asserting on the forum that this new hole, which was covertly dug without permission, now has a right of access attached to it thanks to CROW. Surely this couldn't be what the law was intended for? Effectively, it means that you can dig anywhere you please on CROW land without permission and once the hole is open, the landowner can do nothing about it. There seems to be a legal absurdity here. We've all been told that CROW doesn't give a right to dig, but in practice that seems to be the outcome here.
I suggest the law will not allow it.  There is a fundamental principle in law that one should not 'gain' from an illegal act.  Although the oft quoted examples apply to those directly involved, I am confident that a court will throw out any claim that an entrance opened by a breach of the CRoW Act should remain open for others to use.  (I presume that in the Twll Du case, the scheduled monument status is considered a more signficiant potential breach.) 


Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2018, 01:11:09 pm »
Can we stay on topic please? There are several other threads about Twll Du.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #184 on: January 18, 2018, 01:20:56 pm »
Congratulations! Eight pages on a none topic.  Does it really matter if Linda Wilson is BCA Legal Officer or not.  It will not effect me.  I will still go caving regardless. My only claim to fame is that Linda called me a "fuckwit".   :o

Absolutely it matters; it could be disasterous.

She called you a fuckwit? Seems to be a badge of honour.

Offline Rhys

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #185 on: January 18, 2018, 02:25:40 pm »
Can we stay on topic please? There are several other threads about Twll Du.

My comment was more generally about the application of CROW, but using the current issues at Twll Du as an example. I suppose this thread isn't directly about CROW either, so maybe I should do as you ask. Sorry.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #186 on: January 18, 2018, 06:29:15 pm »
But I think the argument is that a landowner on Access land is less likely to grant permission to dig if s/he knows that any finds will attract extra traffic from cavers who have  a right to access rather than having to seek the landowner's permission.

I would argue that in _most_ (not all) cases, if you don't have a reasonable expectation of (at least reasonably) open access to cavers after your dig finds caverns measureless to man, you probably shouldn't be digging there in the first place and should find somewhere else.

Offline badger

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2018, 07:20:57 pm »
I actually agree with whoever said 8 pages on something which is not happening, and had it gone to vote within the council where by any position until voted on by an agm would be acting, believe would have been voted against.
I personally don't have anything against linda, obviously differ greatly regards CROW, and would have voted against her as acting legal officer. however it is all academic as the exec are going to field anything legal and then find the right legal person to advice.
anything one has with personal issues has nothing to do with the legal officer position on the council, cause it never happened,

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2018, 07:50:05 pm »
anything one has with personal issues has nothing to do with the legal officer position on the council, cause it never happened,

It's not personal issues - until this all kicked off, someone fundamentally opposed to what the BCA members voted for was looking very likely to be voted into a position where they could, as evidenced by Jenny P's post, carry on subverting the members wishes. I'm glad it was declined, but it should never have been a possibility in the first place.
Permission? Wassat den?