Author Topic: Another pinion...  (Read 3467 times)

Offline droid

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Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 05:58:30 pm »
I can feel myself losing the will to live.
Again.

Offline Alex

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 06:44:12 pm »
I thought we were past all this... unfortunately I don't have several hours to read all that at the moment. I am sick of going over old ground and will continue to cave irregardless of what is said, unless it becomes a criminal offence to go caving!
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline JasonC

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 07:35:56 pm »
Quote
Just to be clear here from the outset, I have absolutely no training in Law.

- whereas Dinah Rose is a QC.  Just saying....

Offline martinr

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 07:50:18 pm »
Let me fix that for you

Quote
Just to be clear here from the outset, I have absolutely no training in Law.  I practice as an expert witness in the field of surveying and the interpretation of maps. 

- whereas Dinah Rose is a QC.  Just saying....

Offline royfellows

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 07:52:44 pm »
Dont worry about it, I can shoot holes in it right of the top of my head. What lies under land (from the arguments in that particular paper) are as irrelevant as what lies above. Land ownership was once regarded as all the way to heaven and all the way to the centre of the earth. Obviously this has been overturned in recent years due to aviation acts which allow ownership to extend all the way up sufficient for quiet enjoyment only, otherwise overflying aircraft would be trespassing. Likewise we now know that the centre of the earth is a liquid state.

The very idea of every metre of cave space being shown on 'Definitive Maps' if CROW were intended to extend to them is ridiculous anyway.

I have an 'opinion' which I keep to myself, and yes it is based on current legislation, and angle everyone else has missed. But, the expression "collateral damage" comes to mind, also "can of worms". No, it stays in my head, for good.

Please, no PMs on this, the answer is "no".
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Graigwen

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 08:00:15 pm »
Dont worry about it, I can shoot holes in it right of the top of my head. .... Likewise we now know that the centre of the earth is a liquid state.

Geophysical evidence indicates that the Earth's inner core is solid, although surrounded by a liquid outer core.


(Nothing like a silly bit of pedantry to draw attention to Roy's sensible comments.)

Offline royfellows

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 08:03:06 pm »
Dont worry about it, I can shoot holes in it right of the top of my head. .... Likewise we now know that the centre of the earth is a liquid state.

Geophysical evidence indicates that the Earth's inner core is solid, although surrounded by a liquid outer core.


(Nothing like a silly bit of pedantry to draw attention to Roy's sensible comments.)

Your OK on this. All this was addressed in the arguments considered in Bocardo V Star Energy
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Dave Tyson

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 08:25:15 pm »
I am sure the Dankness Below website will soon provide a robust counter view  :clap2:

Dave

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 08:48:15 pm »
There exist two possibilities (the first one is correct, but the second amuses me):

1) Caves are not 'land', they are land features. Not all land features (e.g. a boulder or a bridge) are shown on the CROW map but that doesn't mean that those aren't covered by CROW. See the aforementioned Bocardo V Star Energy.

2) Caves are land, somehow magically separate from surface land. In which case local authorities have not yet completed their definitive maps, and need to start mapping out all the cave-land in the country! And then decide whether or not it is CROW land (I would argue that if caves were a surface feature, their terrain would naturally be designated as CROW land as it is unimproved wild land).
Also who owns all this magical cave land - perhaps it is terra nullius? Perhaps the Queen owns it all? Perhaps we should be asking her for permission? :P
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 08:58:17 pm by andrewmc »

Offline royfellows

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 09:01:52 pm »
Good points Andrew
 :thumbsup:
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 09:09:51 pm »
At least the editor didn't have to look for any other articles for the April edition.
Renegade!

Offline Badlad

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 09:19:39 pm »
I had a quick skim of this when it appeared in the South Wales caving club publication.

For someone who is an 'expert witness in surveying and interpretation of maps' he makes no comment on some significant points which have been made a number of times before.   The CRoW Act does not constrain the existing definition of land.  Its maps of access land are a 2D representation similar to many other official mapping.  It is not usual to mark up on maps any third dimension of property etc.  Footpaths are not marked where they run under roads or railways for example.  Most notably the Great Orme Copper Mines or the Alt nan Uamh Bone Caves, both ancient scheduled monuments are depicted on official maps as a 2D representation of the underground features.  The same goes for SSSI designation where the SSSI includes underground caves.

So official maps use a 2D representation of the land to define a 3D parcel of land which is designated as open country.   Thus you have a 3D space in which one can carry out open air recreation of any type be it caving underneath or kite flying above or snowboarding on the snow that falls on the land or even walking on its surface.

Furthermore a definitive footpath map has the purpose of defining where the footpath runs.  The map of open country does not seek to define what open air activities can be done within that 3D space, locations where one can walk, sightsee, bird-watch, climb, run, ski or snowboard etc.  Rather it just provides a boundary within which you can carry any of them out.

The author makes much of Marble Steps Pot and Eldon Hole both of which are not included in the designated access land which surrounds them.  Both are small walled enclosures with trees and vegetation obscuring the hole.  Without checking I'm sure Dinah Rose dealt with this but anyway what about Hull Pot!  This is a much larger hole and yet it is included in the access land designation as are many other large cave features.

Perhaps the SWCC will allow an 'alternative view' to be printed in the next publication.  If they do I wonder if the Darkness will be so keen to publish it on their site.

Cheers all

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 06:35:33 am »
My opinion, which is about as valid as his as I have naff all legal training either, is that he has a connection to a purveyor of exceedingly good hallucinogenics, and it was under the influence of these it was written.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 07:24:34 am »
The opinion of the BCA Chair is that access rights are under the auspices of the regional councils and BCA exists to help and advise, but not control, the regional councils; the opinion of the CSCC is it does not have to support the BCA democracy.

None of this is my opinion, it is verbatim quotation from respective BCA January 2018 Minutes and CSCC February 2018 minutes.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2018, 08:12:06 am »
Sorry, none of your opinions count for sh*t. According to our mapping chum, you're all drunken reprobates who only decided to push for this silly access under CRoW stuff whilst in your cups.
"Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment"

Offline MarkS

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2018, 09:24:37 am »
Opinion of a QC:
"Cave systems that are situated in an area [...] identified as “open country” on a map produced by the appropriate authority are properly to be regarded as forming part of that open country, to which the right of access under CROW applies;"

Opinion of expert witness in the field of surveying and the interpretation of maps:
"Is there a right of access to cave passage under CRoW in its current configuration?  Most definitely not.  Cave passage cannot credibly be described or thought of as ‘Open Country’. "


Opinion of a QC:
"... the better view is that caving is a form of “open-air recreation” for the purposes of CROW..."

Opinion of expert witness in the field of surveying and the interpretation of maps:
"I consider that it is most probable that a court would find caving not to be an ‘open air recreation’"


I know neither of these people, but I know which opinion I would feel carries more weight in this context.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2018, 10:29:09 am »
Formerly, I had quite strong views on the CRoW initiative. Now I've much more of an open mind. But whatever side of the discussion folk are on, I think the last sentence in that article is something we should all remain sensitive to.

Offline BradW

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2018, 10:31:20 am »
I know neither of these people, but I know which opinion I would feel carries more weight in this context.

Unlike Mark, I am acquainted with Gary. I don't think his article deserves to be slated by people here, even though his opinion might differ from many. It is well-presented, and coherent, but it remains to be seen whether it is credible. As they say, the jury is out. At least Badlad has analysed Gary's article and has responded with a degree of respect.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2018, 10:51:33 am »
Gary Vaughan is clearly a lover of the slippery slope argument.

Let's cut him off right at the beginning!

Eldon hole not included under Access land. Eldon hole is predominated by long standing and historic Exploration. There has never been any fees taken for access to this land, perhaps other than Highwayman back in the day.

Gary also goes on to measure the weakness of arguments "That the position taken by Natural England that cave systems might not properly be regarded as mountain, moor, heath, down or registered Common (MMHDC) is a weak argument on the basis that CRoW is driven by whether a particular piece of land is shown as open country on the map in conclusive form."
 It seems to me that this the definition of "mountain, Moor, Heath, Down or RC" is a list which is trying to catch all definitions which could possibly exist. Therefore the exclusion of Cave in that list is probably an oversight and can be attributed to the likeness of Mountains to caves.
 Specifically with respect to Eldon hole, the use of mountaineers equipment alone would allow a "casual" visitor a visit to the bottom.

However, I do agree with his concluding statement, and the sentiments contained within it. There is much work to do.

"I have set out above that in my view CRoW does not provide access for cavers to go caving but that it does provide a right for a caver dressed in furry suit and oversuit and laden down with technical equipment to cross access land for the purpose of visiting a cave.  In my view it is open to the landowner to choose what happens at the entrance of the cave.  The landowner may take the view that he has no objection to cavers entering the cave and exploring the subterranean passages and there are numerous examples of such landowners.  Conversely the landowner may lock the cave and keep it secure against the general public.  In my view the landowner would be fully entitled to take such a stance as he would not be preventing access to any access land which appears on the map in conclusive from.  My concerns in these current times is that speculation and over optimistic points of view have suggested to certain groups of cavers that landowners do not have a right to refuse access to caves located on access land.  I am concerned that such views potentially place in jeopardy the hard work of others to secure well-grounded working agreements with landowners."

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2018, 10:58:22 am »
Formerly, I had quite strong views on the CRoW initiative. Now I've much more of an open mind. But whatever side of the discussion folk are on, I think the last sentence in that article is something we should all remain sensitive to.

Absolutely right. Through all this I have never heard anybody suggest that we should do anything other than maintain and enhance our good relations. There are many reasons why CRoW helps us all as we keep pointing out. Relationships and access are both continuing to get better and the CRoW Act is all part of it.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the CRoW Act gives us the right to enter caves. The only part where DEFRA appears to partly disagree with us is about how far into a cave we can go and they are refusing to say exactly how far that is.

We need to keep reminding people that cavers as a whole believe we have the right to go anywhere on Access Land which includes anywhere in a cave on that land. We also need to keep reminding people that we are acting on that and that it is in landowners' interest to accept it as I think many of them already have.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2018, 11:03:50 am »
I know neither of these people, but I know which opinion I would feel carries more weight in this context.

Unlike Mark, I am acquainted with Gary. I don't think his article deserves to be slated by people here, even though his opinion might differ from many. It is well-presented, and coherent, but it remains to be seen whether it is credible. As they say, the jury is out. At least Badlad has analysed Gary's article and has responded with a degree of respect.

I'm not slating the article, or wanting to make any comment on him as a person. I have read the article and think that it is well written, if somewhat long-winded, and raises some potentially interesting questions. My point was simply that in the context of seeking a legal opinion in this context, I know which of these two opinions I personally feel carries more weight.

I would also add that it seems bold (to say the least) for someone who states "I have absolutely no training in Law" to go on to say that there is "no credible possibility" that a court's decision would be along the same lines as the published opinion of an eminent lawyer.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2018, 11:09:05 am »
I wonder if Bottlebank intended to put it on Danknessbelow but hit the wrong button and put it on Darknessbelow by mistake.

Offline BradW

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2018, 11:12:43 am »
I know neither of these people, but I know which opinion I would feel carries more weight in this context.

Unlike Mark, I am acquainted with Gary. I don't think his article deserves to be slated by people here, even though his opinion might differ from many. It is well-presented, and coherent, but it remains to be seen whether it is credible. As they say, the jury is out. At least Badlad has analysed Gary's article and has responded with a degree of respect.

I'm not slating the article, or wanting to make any comment on him as a person.

Yes I realise. That's why I wrote "slated by people here", rather than "slated by you" or "slated by everyone here".

Offline Badlad

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2018, 01:16:32 pm »
Further to my point above I just came across this photo of Hull Pot which is not excluded on the access land mapping.  Neither are other large caves such as Gavel, GG, Cow, Rowten etc etc.  There is no explanation given why Eldon Hole and Marble Steps are excluded when other larger caves are not.  Common sense would suggest that it has something to do with both being within small walled enclosures.  With the mapping as it stands there would be no legal right of access to these caves but that does not follow for others such as Hull Pot which are clearly part of open access.

What does strike me as odd is the fact that many of these large and deep potholes are unfenced even when public footpaths run so close to them.  Visiting Hull Pot on a sunny day usually finds large groups of people picnicing and playing around close to the entrance.  Same at GG and Rowten right next to a road/pathway.  This seems acceptable and no landowners seem worried about their liabilities here.  Contrast that with caves in other areas which are locked or sealed up because they are close to public footpaths.  Doesn't make sense.


Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2018, 02:50:55 pm »
There is no explanation given why Eldon Hole and Marble Steps are excluded when other larger caves are not. 
If you look at the 1:25000 scale map you will see Marble Steps is designated as being within a small bounded wooded area.  And woodland was not included in the specification of what could be designated so was excluded.  From a story I heard, I believe much of the mapping exercise was done using maps rather than going out on the ground.  So it may well be the 'reviewer' just looked at the boundary wall, the wood symbol and said 'no, not within definition' and so excluded it.   
I have nothing to offer as to why Eldon Hole was excluded.

Having said that, it has been to many years since I was at the entrance so I have no recollection as to whether the entrance is truly within woods or indeed within the boundary wall shown on the map.  It is too late to appeal against the original designation but if NE decide to do a review of the map (it has been put off until 2019/20 an could be delayed again) but perhaps it could be questioned as part of that exercise, along with Eldon Hole. 

I would add a word of caution.  The mapping exercise was accepted as being 'large scale' so the presence of shading indicating open country does not mean that 'micro' areas within it are excluded.  CRoW Schedule 1 lists specifically excluded types which often are not shown excluded on maps.

Offline JJ

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2018, 03:58:05 pm »
I had some involvement in the Dales with the introduction of CRoW access land and the appeals procedure. It is fair to say that  there were anomalies, a number being successfully appealed.

The surveying process was entirely map based, only on appeal did the planning inspectorate visit a site.

It is my opinion that many small enclosures below 0.01 hectares were just assumed to be "cultivated" land. The enclosure in Ribblesdale at SD784777 being just one such example - who knows why it was excluded. The two caves cited may be other such examples.

Offline Rhys

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2018, 04:29:32 pm »
My opinion, which is about as valid as his as I have naff all legal training either, is that he has a connection to a purveyor of exceedingly good hallucinogenics, and it was under the influence of these it was written.

Newstuff; rather than attacking the mental state of the author, why not address the points made in the article? There are some holes in it.

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2018, 04:38:47 pm »
When considering the validity of the opinions from a QC and a non-legal person, it might be wise to consider that those opinions are formed from the available information.

I very much doubt that the information supplied to the QC was neutral, given it's likely source.....
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2018, 05:39:09 pm »
The material for the opinion, delivered to the QC was largely put together by me and Bob.  There were three huge files, some 700 plus pages of it and references on that. It was a huge volume of work and covered every aspect we had come across related to the issue.    It included all the arguments put forward by the anti brigade of the time and of course those of Defra/NE.  We highlighted the two big caves that were excluded from access land and other factors that might not have sat so well with a pro CRoW argument.  We wanted the judgement to be based on all the evidence available and it was.  All the material supplied to the QC was made public so that those anti groups could see for themselves and I've not heard any substantiated complaints of bias yet.  The QC herself commented that the material supplied was better presented and more thoroughly researched than she received from most professional law firms.  I was proud of the work we did on that, Bob was an absolute trojan, and that is why I have full confidence in the QC's opinion being the best it can be.

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2018, 05:46:31 pm »
Could the 'anti groups' comment on here without fear of pre-moderation or ban?
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2018, 06:00:54 pm »
The material for the opinion, delivered to the QC was largely put together by me and Bob. 
You forgot Jenny Pott's efforts which were significant in their own way. 

And if any one wants a copy of the material given to the QC, then pm me.

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2018, 06:06:58 pm »
Let's get one thing straight.

I'm not saying there wasn't effort put in to the submission.

What I'm saying is submissions from the 'anti groups' - not mediated by 'pro groups' - were noticeable by their absence.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2018, 06:14:48 pm »
My opinion, which is about as valid as his as I have naff all legal training either, is that he has a connection to a purveyor of exceedingly good hallucinogenics, and it was under the influence of these it was written.

Newstuff; rather than attacking the mental state of the author, why not address the points made in the article? There are some holes in it.

Because it is yet more propaganda, and as such, deserves no serious discussion. DEFRA acknowledge that we *do* have the right to enter caves, the *only* issues being some silliness about how far, and a few, vocal old curmudgeons resenting "losing power".

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2018, 06:23:05 pm »
Best way to combat 'propaganda' is to present a cogent argument against it.
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2018, 06:48:28 pm »
Best way to combat 'propaganda' is to present a cogent argument against it.

We don't need to because there is one already that none of us could better.

A bloke with no training in law disagrees with a legal opinion written by one of the most eminent lawyers in the country... :lol:

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 06:48:48 pm »
Best way to combat 'propaganda' is to present a cogent argument against it.

I'm past caring now to be honest. People have repeatedly threatened my job by putting my real name out there. It's the low down, scummy, nasty tricks they're using - and you know what? It's worked. I can't have an opinion because some old codger got his knickers in a twist and wants to play dirty. They have used something totally and utterly unrelated to caving and got what they wanted. That's the levels they're willing to go to to throw shit all over things.

So now I just go out and do what I want. I'm not part of the BCA, CCC, any other club or organisation, we don't have to worry about besmirching anyone else's name. **** your locks, gates, sensibilities, leader systems, permits. I tried to play nice, to do the right thing, but you a lot of "your" side forced my hand Droid, although you yourself have appeared to play fair.

Rest assured, I'll be catching up with those responsible, make no mistake. I'll show them what underhanded and nasty *really* is. In the meantime, I'll go where I want, when I want, and I'd *love* to see someone try to stop me.

In short - **** politics, I'm going caving.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 06:52:38 pm by Badlad, Reason: swearing removed »
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 06:54:10 pm »
Could the 'anti groups' comment on here without fear of pre-moderation or ban?

You are doing.

The reason why you don't see many more comments by the "anti groups" is because they are very small in number.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2018, 06:56:10 pm »
Global Moderator Comment Calm please - New Stuff and Droid or we'll moderate and lock the thread. None of it does any good, people want informed discussion not threats.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2018, 06:58:33 pm »
Could the 'anti groups' comment on here without fear of pre-moderation or ban?

Oh come on Droid.  Ukcaving has got thousands of posts,probably tens of thousands, on the subject of CRoW from both sides of the argument and going back more than ten years.  How much more anti crow comment do you want?

BCA ran a poll on running a CroW campaign which was supported with a 62% majority.  The impediment in the constitution the 'anti group' then put up to thwart that campaign was then defeated 85%/88% (club/individual votes) by the BCA membership.  Only a handful of people are banned from this forum and that is for breaking the rules and not for their views on CroW.  Two of them are big names 'anti group' who set up the Darkness Below site, that is their right.  Two others who you won't hear much from were raving pro-crowers.  Again banned for breaking forum rules not for their views on CroW.

If the author of this latest opinion wants to discuss it on here I would welcome that.  Although I expect many forum readers will despair.

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2018, 06:59:38 pm »
A bloke with no training in law disagrees with a legal opinion written by one of the most eminent lawyers in the country... :lol:

Yet again you don't read the posts properly, RE the information supplied to said 'one of the most eminent lawyers in the country'.....
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Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2018, 07:12:26 pm »
Badlad...can I guess who one of the raving pro-crowers' is?

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

On a personal note: I'm a scientist by training. Trained to look at verifiable data and propose arguments from that. Personalities don't come into it.

I'd be asking the same questions regarding information and its sources if I was in favour of CRoW. In fact I'm pretty neutral regarding CRoW.

An Opinion of whatever source based on biased information is a biased Opinion, regardless of the origins of that Opinion.
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Offline Fulk

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2018, 07:12:54 pm »
FFS, droid, why don't you read what Badlad posted at 5–39–09?

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2018, 07:14:08 pm »
Because I'm too old..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Alex

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2018, 07:30:26 pm »
We have to put up with one blooming referendum result (Britexit) so it's only fair that we get this one too, and it's with a much bigger majority ;)
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2018, 03:28:13 am »
Fulk: finally sussed what you were saying. Here's my reply.

Let's get one thing straight.

I'm not saying there wasn't effort put in to the submission.

What I'm saying is submissions from the 'anti groups' - not mediated by 'pro groups' - were noticeable by their absence.
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Offline crickleymal

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2018, 09:00:25 am »
Do we really have to go round this never ending loop again?
Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2018, 09:14:43 am »
Do we really have to go round this never ending loop again?

Seconded
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2018, 09:15:12 am »
Do we really have to go round this never ending loop again?
I think that's a very negative attitude!

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2018, 02:21:36 pm »
Do we really have to go round this never ending loop again?
I think that's a very negative attitude!
Can't work out whether you're joking or not. How I am being negative in not wanting to read the same old arguments and threats trotted out time and time again?
Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2018, 04:02:02 pm »
Sorry.

I know nowadays you're supposed to use one of those mojo things to show exactly how something is meant, but I never remember to do it.

See my reply #1 right at the start of this thread.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2018, 04:20:23 pm »
Ah I see now.  :thumbsup:
Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline droid

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Re: Another pinion...
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2018, 09:00:51 pm »
Don't fret lads.

Once the BMC realise they're flogging a dead horse all this will be carefully forgotten  :lol:
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