Author Topic: Metal Steps KMC  (Read 8899 times)

Offline Balmerfish

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Metal Steps KMC
« on: July 23, 2018, 11:48:46 am »
Hi,
Feeling curious regarding these metal bars that have appeared in KMC after 8ths July (i think). We saw them around 21st, and grabbed some quick pics this Saturday -pics arnt wonderful quality.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 12:03:21 pm by Balmerfish »
We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky bun.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 11:58:09 am »
Whereabouts are they?  (look ugly to me)

Offline Balmerfish

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 12:01:47 pm »
Hi Ian, Not 100% sure of proper name. They were about the main stream way - there are already bolts up there.
We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky bun.

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 12:03:00 pm »
They are god awful! No two guesses who installed them!

Offline paul

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 12:03:57 pm »
Part of the high-level traverse above the streamway for high water conditions?
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Balmerfish

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 12:06:54 pm »
Hi Paul,
 i wondered that too, it was an area that there seemed to be plenty foot holds, and place for rope to be riggeed - so i wasnt sure.
We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky bun.

Offline maxf

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 12:09:31 pm »
Pretty sure there were some in there back in May

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2018, 12:16:05 pm »
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 12:30:37 pm by Simon Beck »

Offline Cave_Troll

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 01:06:03 pm »
underground via ferrata ?

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 01:51:48 pm »
Could someone take pity on me - is KMC the Kingsdale Master Cave? :shrug:

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2018, 02:06:20 pm »
yes

Offline Inferus

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 09:27:19 pm »
I contemplated a long reply but to condense it a little...

Why????  :wall:

Someone has the answer, be brave and explain..
Awkward, grumpy sod.

Offline Cave_Troll

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2018, 08:28:40 am »
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Offline Ed

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 10:25:49 am »
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.

No use of hangers / bolts, scaffolding or capping for you in future Mr B?

Offline Alex

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2018, 10:30:04 am »
I thought they had been there a lot longer than that, at least as far as the climb alternative to the pitch. I recall seeing one there over a year ago, about 2 thirds of the way up. Unless I am imagining things.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2018, 10:34:58 am »
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.

No use of hangers / bolts, scaffolding or capping for you in future Mr B?

I think there’s a slight difference between exploration / digging and rigging aids in a well travelled cave.

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 12:18:32 pm »
Under the differing circumstances we operate, no two cavers will ever agree on everything, and I wouldn't expect them too.

This mind you is a pretty radical upgrade to a system that worked perfectly fine before as it was. I maybe jumped the gun accusing the obvious rescue team. But whoever it was needs to come forward and explain. 

Offline fillipe_ferlop

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2018, 12:43:13 pm »
As a member of the 'obvious recue team',  and a member of the Ops group for said team,  I can tell you that any permanent rigging or aids we fit are always done in consultation with CNCC or,  above ground,  the BMC and other interested parties. These steps have never been discussed or sanctioned by the teams Ops group.
On some rescues,  we need to rig extra hangers or bolts,  which are then either made good or referred to CNCC to see if they will allow them to remain.
Believe it or not, we do try not to damage the cave environment.

Offline Flotsam

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2018, 12:46:28 pm »
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber

Offline mch

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2018, 04:37:07 pm »
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber
Me too. I can't see why you would need aids. If you were doing a through trip from Simpson's or Swinsto exiting via KMC and felt that you weren't competent to free climb the pitch then just pop in and rig it beforehand.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2018, 04:45:59 pm »
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber
Me too. I can't see why you would need aids. If you were doing a through trip from Simpson's or Swinsto exiting via KMC and felt that you weren't competent to free climb the pitch then just pop in and rig it beforehand.

I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2018, 04:46:51 pm »
I've only seen the pictures myself, but from what I gather they are not an aid to ascending the Roof Tunnel pitch, they're an addition to the high level traverse within the ceiling of the Master Cave.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2018, 06:41:16 pm »
Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?





Offline Wolfo

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2018, 07:00:36 pm »
Guessed from the picture they are badly homemade (no constant bending angles, so no bending jig was used) and from mild, galavanized construction steel (second picture - a bit of rust?).
Stainless steel is a bit of critical, as you should know exactly the used material if you do cold bending.

Resined/glued/cemented in - hopefully yes.   :o
Otherwise the shitty drillghost should be attached by some tradtional hangmans knot to his "work", guilty of building suicide anchors.
But cannot imagine someone so dump.
Lower Saxony - Harz Mountain Area - Germany

Offline mch

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2018, 07:02:40 pm »
I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?

Ah - thanks for clarifying that langcliffe.