Nominations deadline for the AGM closing midnight Sunday 19th March

nobrotson

Active member
I was under the impression the BCA as a matter of (potentially unwritten) policy left all of the island of Ireland to the SUI; for example, I don't think there are any BCA clubs in Northern Ireland? (I could be misremembering)
The SUI does administer them and is their governing body, but I think insurance-wise they can access BCA insurance the way we can if they choose to (in practice they don't choose to use it). I didn't mean that BCA has any authority or oversight of Irish clubs or SUI, they do their own thing. CHECC, however, does represent Irish student cavers because they asked to be involved. SUI like what CHECC does (or at least gave me the impression they did), and in the case above the SUI did ask Josh and I for help. If we had had more of a functioning BCA we could have been of more assistance to them in the case above in my view.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
1. what are you satisfied about? I know a lot of very indifferent members who think it may as well not exist.

2. If the Irish students go caving without authorisation from the university, the university will shut the club down and repossess all equipment bought with university funds. The club would also then have no ability to access funds from either the university or other bodies (in this case Sports Ireland). The same thing effectively happened to SUSS about 20 years ago, they were effective in combating this by ensuring the university was not able to access the equipment, by ensuring other funding was available, by having a strong relationship with other cavers for support in going caving (along with good alumni support) and by telling the university they would keep using the university name in the club name so the university would still be associated with the club by name (not what the uni wants, they want to control what happens in their clubs which they would not have been able to do in this case). Unfortunately the Irish student clubs are not in a position to do this.

Your student days were some decades ago - since that time, universities have changed massively, and are now businesses rather than places to learn in most cases. This is even more the case in Ireland than in the UK, and Ireland has quite a different, more Americanised, approach to liability than the UK does as well.

3. I mean the Republic and Northern Ireland. Administratively in this case student caving clubs from NI and ROI are basically treated the same and the universities from both places are acting together.
Cheers for your responses:
1. If I get time I'll PM you about it. In a nutshell, as an ordinary caver there is nothing I personally dislike about what BCA does for me and a gert long list of ways I find my DIM membership very beneficial.
2. Thanks for amplifying; yes, I understand that things have changed considerably (which is why I've been very much involved in supporting a number of student clubs, quietly, behind the scenes).
3. Understood; thanks.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
2. If the Irish students go caving without authorisation from the university, the university will shut the club down and repossess all equipment bought with university funds. The club would also then have no ability to access funds from either the university or other bodies (in this case Sports Ireland). The same thing effectively happened to SUSS about 20 years ago, they were effective in combating this by ensuring the university was not able to access the equipment, by ensuring other funding was available, by having a strong relationship with other cavers for support in going caving (along with good alumni support) and by telling the university they would keep using the university name in the club name so the university would still be associated with the club by name (not what the uni wants, they want to control what happens in their clubs which they would not have been able to do in this case). Unfortunately the Irish student clubs are not in a position to do this.
Add to that, that the university would also prevent the club from recruiting new members at 'freshers fair' or having a presence on the university website. Without the means to advertise and promote its activities to recruit new members, any clandestine student club would struggle to keep going for any length of time.
 

Babyhagrid

Well-known member
As a student, the support of our SU (students union) and AU (athletic union) is irreplaceable. We get a large amount of funding which we use to replace kit for the club and to fund going away. We also get Access to the university minibuses . The large 15 seaters make our trips much more financially viable and we can only use these through the MIDAS scheme that our SU runs. This lets us drive them without the extra part on our license (an issue for most younger people). As well as this, we have a kitstore in the Students union and access to a kit wash hose. As pointed out above we get access to our freshers fair and to using billboards in the SU and adding our "give it a go" trips to the freshers events calendars.

Without this assistance from the students union our club would be a lot harder to run.

Our interaction with the BCA is mostly limited to the Y+D officer , and to insurance. Which both go without any hitches for us. However it is helpful for us to have documentation made by the BCA Y+D which states that caving qualifications are "not intended for recreational caving and are not considered
appropriate within a club environment" . This has kept the union off our back with regards to getting quals. The union told me we should have qualifications that our national body recommends. So was helpful to be able to say that they do t recommend it. Not sure how this would go down if there was a second national body.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
They already do quite a bit with Y&D; because this is a place where good can be done, good people are attracted to do that good.
Being the insurance manager of the BCA is possibly the most important job at BCA but not terribly glamorous :p
As Insurance manager and Y&D does that make me both important and a good person, if not glamorous. New tinder profile incoming..
 

nearlywhite

Active member
I didn't know we did, until this thread. The notice on the website doesn't say, and (as an individual member) I haven't had any emails. But is there a deadline for nominations? Looking at the Constitution, the deadline for "matters to be raised at a General Meeting of the Association, including all proposals for constitutional change" is 84 days before the AGM, which was 19th March (yesterday). I can see nothing in the Constitution about a deadline for nominations, and since the Constitution itself says that one of the purposes of the AGM is to elect officers, that's not a "matter to be raised".

The Manual of Operations says "Deadline for receipt of nominations for Executive, Officer (Standing Committee Convenors) and Club/Individual Representative posts by Secretary, as well as any items or proposals to be raised at the AGM" is "Midnight on Day of Council Meeting Preceding AGM" and "This is a Constitutional requirement" - I can't find anything about that in the Constitution, which also says only that Council shall meet twice per year, and not when (so it could, constitutionally, meet the day before the AGM).

People can still 'run from the floor' for any open positions and even then failing that then council can co-opt members. The problem is that we don't know what is filled or empty. I suspect the executive of BCA council don't know either.

I think MoO hasn't been changed following Jenny's rewrite to update section 7 which is why it makes reference to constitutionality - though I'd argue the having the rules be in the MoO and so be more flexible is a good thing.

As for whether a candidate's election statement constitutes a matter or a proposal would be subject to interpretation at an AGM - 'matters' seem to be undefined.

Regardless of the above it's all just chaotic and demonstrates a really sub par job in organisation and planning. The most damming indictment is all the current council members who have expressed their frustration in this thread seem to match what I described in my original rant.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I can confirm that the Manual of Operations is horribly out of date and AFAIK is effectively no longer in use. However, it isn't a constitutional document, so there is no strict requirement for BCA to maintain it. I don't think the documentation is really the problem (although lack thereof certainly does make people jobs a bit harder); just the lack of volunteers with a lot of free time, no other competing commitments and keenness to do things (I definitely lack the time at the moment, let alone the other things).
 

ChrisB

Active member
An Newsletter has been published on the BCA website which includes:

The AGM will be held on the Sunday (14th June 2020) at Priddy Village Hall, 10:30am. All BCA members are welcome. Individual members (CIMs/DIMs) should bring their BCA membership card as identification if wanting to vote.
The following vacancies on BCA Council will arise at the meeting:
1. Conservation and Access Officer (three year term)
2. Two representatives for Group members (two year terms)
3. Two representatives for Individual members (two year terms)
The deadline to apply for these positions, and to submit any proposals is midnight on Saturday 4th April 2020
The listing of the vacancies is useful, although I don't understand where the deadline comes from.
 

Babyhagrid

Well-known member
An Newsletter has been published on the BCA website which includes:


The listing of the vacancies is useful, although I don't understand where the deadline comes from.
the newsletter is from February 2022.
so if they are using the same timescale we should have had a newsletter last month explaining the process for the AGM?
 

ChrisB

Active member
the newsletter is from February 2022.
Oops! My mistake. (February 2020 actually). I just looked on the website for any updates and that was the first thing on the "News" page.

So, yes, we might have expected one this year. I thought I'd seen a hopeful sign, but just more chaos.
 
Last edited:

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I'm fairly sure the newsletter editor resigned several years ago. It must be one of the vacant positions still. If there is no one doing P&I and no one doing a newsletter then who is communicating with the paying members? :(
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
I'm fairly sure the newsletter editor resigned several years ago. It must be one of the vacant positions still. If there is no one doing P&I and no one doing a newsletter then who is communicating with the paying members? :(
No one is, presumably. Which may explain a fair amount.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I'm fairly sure the newsletter editor resigned several years ago. It must be one of the vacant positions still. If there is no one doing P&I and no one doing a newsletter then who is communicating with the paying members? :(
Regional councils, hopefully, in the absence of direct P&I work. Not ideal though.
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
Imogen Campion has recently started helping the BCA out with some publicity work such as posting on the website and social media, but I don't think has a formal role or responsibilities (don't take my word for this).
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Regional councils, hopefully, in the absence of direct P&I work. Not ideal though.
I'm sure CNCC wouldn't expect to give BCA any credit for the work they do regarding promoting caving and communicating with northern cavers. The previous CNCC secretary and webmaster both gave up their time to volunteer with BCA. They were doing a brilliant job but were hounded out by a couple of old timers who had been with BCA for decades and didn't like change - or being held to account. The exec tended to support the status quo and it led to half a dozen resignations of younger dynamic volunteers. It was a shameful period and some of those posts remain vacant years later and more importantly the momentum to make BCA something to be proud of was lost. I respect the efforts of Ari, Andrew and Josh but they are a small, flickering beacon of light in a pretty awful organisation IMO. Still there is always hope...
 

nearlywhite

Active member
Any news?

I mean the lack of either the secretary or chair of the organisation offering even a simple explanation onto this thread/the website/anything anywhere is shameful. They should cop to the shoddy job they're doing but because it involves being held to account they pretend that talking to the membership is beneath them.

I'm surprised they haven't faced a vote of no confidence
 
Top