Discussion of the proposal to Remove 2 individual and 2 group representatives on BCA Council

[me]

I would like to understand the implication of the proposal put forward by Josh White at the BCA AGM 2022 before I vote.

What are peoples thoughts please?

Wording:
Over the last few AGMs Council has struggled to fully fill these roles, and when they have the roles there is very little output from these members.

I propose that we reduce the number of individual representatives to 2 and group representatives to 2, which one representatives of each to be elected at each AGM with a term of two years

If this proposal is accepted, the individual and group representatives with the highest number of votes at this AGM will accept the role.

The relevant constitutional changes would be as follows:
"6.2 The Association shall have a National Council comprised of the Officers of the Association, up to four two representatives from the class of Group Members, up to four two representatives from the class of Individual Members."

My understanding is that BCA Council is the elected body of volunteers that runs and makes operational decisions for the BCA. It includes 4 members who represent the interests of Clubs and 4 members who represent Individuals who have one voting right each.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Personally I'm ambivalent about the proposal, and haven't decided how I'll vote yet.

There is definitely a problem with the way that the BCA recruits, manages, and motivates its volunteers, but I'm not convinced that the answer is to reduce the number of member representatives. Would Andrew Eavis have run for a vacant non-voting functional volunteer role, like Publicity & Information or Conservation & Access if a representative role wasn't available? I assume not (and that's nothing personal, Andy has contributed greatly to the BCA).

I guess there's the argument that they're not being taken up so there's no point having them, but they're also not causing any problems by being there. They might be useful in the future if taken up by people with a strong desire to change the BCA in some way.

So I'm undecided as yet.

 

[Pegasus]

This proposal is addressing the wrong problem.

The problem isn't too many group/individual member positions, it's the inability of BCA to recruit and retain volunteers.

I'd vote against.

Jane Allen (ex P&I)

 

[Cavematt]

To put a slightly different perspective on Ari's (and Jane's) viewpoint above...

During my short and unpleasant time as BCA Secretary we also had unfulfilled Individual and Group rep roles.

I was almost continuously mandated to be trying to get people into these roles on an 'acting' basis in between AGMs, resulting in quite a hefty workload doing PR throughout the year to try to fulfil empty roles, and then engaging in discussions with potentially interested people, scheduling it on the agendas, making sure those interested were supplied with Council meeting documents and details etc etc (because they weren't on the Council mailing list). Basically, empty roles created a lot of work, because it meant the recruitment process never really stopped after an AGM. On this basis, I'd support the number of council vacancies being more reflective of the typical demand.

However, if workload is not an issue for the current team (or the mandate to fill empty roles mid-term is no longer there) having more roles vacant is probably less of an issue and doesn't cause any harm.

The whole 'Individual' and 'Group' representative thing is nonsense anyway; Many of the individual reps were part of clubs, and many of the group reps I suspect voted based on individual opinions. Most of Council were part of some kind of group, so groups were fairly well represented anyway, and of course everyone is an individual by defacto. There was too much crossover for the terms to be meaningful anymore.

We got rid of the House of Groups / House of Individuals voting system at AGMs for similar reasons.

Hence, I just felt the term 'Group' rep and 'Individual' rep needed to be abolished and just replaced with 'Council Member' to provide a simple way for people (particularly younger people) to get involved in BCA Council without taking on a particular job, and without feeling they either have to specifically represent groups, or individuals... but instead just represent British cavers.

 

[Pegasus]

Hence, I just felt the term 'Group' rep and 'Individual' rep needed to be abolished and just replaced with 'Council Member' to provide a simple way for people (particularly younger people) to get involved in BCA Council without taking on a particular job, and without feeling they either have to specifically represent groups, or individuals... but instead just represent British cavers.

Great point.

 

[Rob]

I presume the BCA website is out of date, as it shows 3 Group and 2 Individual members are currently in position...?

BCA Council

The BCA has a National Council comprising 29 positions which are democratically elected by membership and have a vote on Council: There are also numerous additional (non-voting) positions which are…

british-caving.org.uk

 

[Ian Ball]

In answer to OP, the impact will be minimal.

 

[Badlad]

I think there are two main issues with the group and club reps I have observed over the years. Matt has touched on the first. It is a good way to encourage new blood into the organisation, at least for a few years. Youngers cavers would turn up to an AGM to support a particular position and end up getting co-opted into one of the vacant roles. Mark Richardson and Henry Rockcliffe did a stint that way and their input was valuable. They were all too soon out when their terms came to an end though, and this press-ganging is no real way to go about recruitment for vacant positions. It also doesn't help with AGMs being on line now - there is not the social time around the meetings to be persuasive.

The other issue which happens far too much is that the rep position is used, for those who like BCA meetings/politics, to recycle themselves around council. Several members of council have been both club reps and when that expired individual reps. Sometimes they already have a (non voting) role in BCA and then take on the empty position just to get a vote as well. It is not always a bad thing, but done too much, if an organisation just keeps recycling the same old members it becomes very stale.

What is really needed is an input of young dynamic people to run the organisation. Sadly, as Matt alluded to in his post, for many who try this it ends up being an unpleasant experience. The consequence of Russell beating Rostam for the chair has certainly not helped in this respect.

 

[Ian Adams]

Could we have a better worded proposal please?

“Recycling” was huge 10+ years ago although it seems to have drifted off now. It wasn’t just causing the BCA to be “Stale”, it added to the very significant troubles we have seen over recent times. Moreover, it poisoned the chalice for future potential candidates. It also created the opportunity for the “elected member” to express their own view rather than the group they represent. That too was a significant part of the troubles in times now past.

It has been said time and time again (and in this thread) that what is needed is someone to take the mantle, embrace the mantle and get involved for the benefit of the BCA and caving in general. Not someone who will just stick their hand up when they hear something they like.

In fairness, if done properly, it is an arduous undertaking. Perhaps the BCA might consider appointing/electing a “Mentor” whose function it would be to offer support, guidance and to steer such officers in the right direction?

Reducing the number of positions is both unnecessary and folly. Whilst they remain unoccupied there is no detriment. While they remain available however, there is opportunity for more talent to adorn the great halls of the BCA and extend our sport beyond Orion’s Belt and into the great Cosmos that glitters within our skies.

Well, perhaps not quite that far.

Ian

 

[JoshW]

Guess it's worth me trying to respond to a few of these queries (apologies it wasn't as quick as I normally jump on threads on here, been caving and meeting with university caving clubs)

It also created the opportunity for the “elected member” to express their own view rather than the group they represent

Reducing the number of positions is both unnecessary and folly

One of my theories is by having fewer vacancies on council it increases 'competition' for the roles, ensuring that only those who are going to express the views of the groups/individuals that they represent.

This is demonstrated well by at this AGM Andy Eavis standing from the floor, and only upon my request providing an election statement for the membership to make and informed decision. I'd make the comment (and this is nothing against Andy and what he has done for British caving) that his statement still doesn't make any comment on how he intends to represent the views of the individuals he was going to represent.

This has been an issue with previous holders of these positions as well, in my opinion.

The problem isn't too many group/individual member positions, it's the inability of BCA to recruit and retain volunteers.

I'd argue at least part of the reason BCA struggles to retain volunteers is how (at least during my spell on council) council meetings function. The meetings are generally used as a place to air grievances over and over again, that realistically need to be dealt with outside of council.

An example of this is fairly well reflected by a participant bringing up an issue from a previous council meeting, where an individual had gone on a bit of a rant during the council meeting about a fairly large issue (but one that does seem to take up a lot of volunteer time), and this participant then proceeded to go on a bit of a rant themselves (having already had the same rant at the council meeting days prior).

What is really needed is an input of young dynamic people to run the organisation. Sadly, as Matt alluded to in his post, for many who try this it ends up being an unpleasant experience.

I'd like to still put myself in the category of young people (even if not necessarily dynamic), and have encouraged others to join council into roles, however entirely understand why they couldn't/didn't want to deal with the madness that can happen during these meetings.

For anyone that has attended any of my youth and development meetings (granted I've not run any of these in probably too long), this is how I'd like to see council meetings run. Brief summaries given by each of the project managers (or in councils case working group conveners), with the assumption that council members will have read the relevant reports and raised any queries in advance with the WG conveners and hashed anything out. With council serving as a place of updates and sealing the deal on votes.

My long term view of council is that the overall size of council needs to reduce. clubs/individuals have lots of places that they can raise queries and issues they have without needing individual/group votes, i.e. their regional body, working groups such as Conservation & Access, Publications & Information , Youth &Development, Training & Equipment

In answer to OP, the impact will be minimal.

This is probably the most accurate response, and I genuinely didn't see this being a contentious proposal for the AGM at all, so if anyone does have any queries about it, please reach out to me through any form of social media (joshwhite992), on here or via email at youth@british-caving.org.uk and I'll do my best to answer your queries.

 

[mikem]

I presume the BCA website is out of date, as it shows 3 Group and 2 Individual members are currently in position...?

BCA Council

The BCA has a National Council comprising 29 positions which are democratically elected by membership and have a vote on Council: There are also numerous additional (non-voting) positions which are…

british-caving.org.uk

If you click on the links below their names it says Josh is the only one in position until 2023, others finished at 2022 AGM. According to other thread there is also only one individual now: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/online-ballot-2022.29585/#post-361707