Is it to be Swinsto or Simpson pot for your pull through trip, that is the question?

[Wardy]

After a recent thread on a Swinsto pull through "Fatman" replied and suggested that "Simpson is probably better."

Now my personal opinion is that they are both great sporting through trips, with a truly tremendous Master Cave and you exit right next to the car.

However if pushed I prefer Swinsto.

Simpson has the duck and slit pot which add a bit of fun and variety, but for me it is all over too quick.
The crawl in Swinsto adds a little effort,that for me makes me feel like I have earned the fun that follows, there are more pitches to savour and I love the sporting streamway lower down, So for me Swinsto it is.

So fully respecting Fatmans choice, even though he is clearly wrong, the score currently stands at 1all, but what do you think and why?

 

[PeteHall]

I used to prefer Simpson's, but now I tend to prefer Swinsto (mostly so I don't have to admit to anyone that I find Slit Pot quite challenging now).

One or other remain my trip of choice for a Sunday morning before the long drive back south.

Best trip ever though was during EuroSpeleo when we went down Swinsto, up Simpson's then back down Rowten and out Valley. All without carrying a rope and before anyone else had staggered out of bed and got into the system.

 

[Ian P]

Swinsto for me. It seems to “flow” better and the Split pitch is fantastic. Saying that I’m going down Simpson pot on Friday to look at some anchors and I don’t think I will need dragging out of Bed kicking and screaming.

 

[Ian Ball]

More anchors! pourquoi?

Simpson Pot for me, you need less rope so its easier to go in a small group/solo.

 

[Fulk]

What about Turbary Pot?

[And Ian didn't say 'more anchors' but that he's going to look at (check out?) some (dodgy??) anchors.]

 

[Wardy]

It was a straight 2 option shootout
The new kid on the block needs a little time to gain notoriety and then it can be rated against the traditional classics.
Good call though

 

[topcat]

Turbary has more caving :? Very nice trip but could use better pull through anchors. Double chain and ring in the right place would be helpful.

And the last pitch in S/S.......down the waterfall. Really?

 

[caving_fox]

Whichever one I haven't done recently. Swinsto tends to get done more often as some are put off by Slit. Hence Simpsons is probably my favourite as I do it less often.

 

[Pitlamp]

Simpson Pot is my favourite; but I've not yet had chance to do Turbary as a through trip, so maybe that'll take over?

 

[cavemanmike]

Swinsto

 

[langcliffe]

I have been mulling this one over, and it's not easy. Both are magnificent caves. When water levels are low and the water temperature is warm, I would probably go for Swinsto, on the basis that Simpson Pot is comfortable for most of the rest of the time.

I haven't actually been through the Slit in Simpson for years - the way over the top provides a much more enjoyable hang, and Great Aven also makes a superb alternative. I also enjoy the alternative to Storm Pot.

Turbary Pot is great fun, and unlike topcat, I like the pull-through rigging. Turbary also allows one to experience the lower Swinsto passages under conditions when the split pitch would not be feasible.

The bottom pitch of Swinsto is problematic. In normal conditions, one can free climb down the left-hand side and remain dry. I have never been tempted by the CNCC P-bolts. The traverse round to the right is dry and elegant, but some people might be reluctant to commit themselves to the bolting.

 

[Ian Ball]

Is that bottom pitch of Swinsto also encountered on a Simpson trip and if so is going up it on the left (so right) as simple as coming down it?

 

[langcliffe]

Is that bottom pitch of Swinsto also encountered on a Simpson trip and if so is going up it on the left (so right) as simple as coming down it?

Yes, it is that pitch, but I have never actually climbed back up it!

 

[PeteHall]

Is that bottom pitch of Swinsto also encountered on a Simpson trip and if so is going up it on the left (so right) as simple as coming down it?

I'm slightly confused by which left/ right you mean...

The easiest climb (which is very easy in the dry, but impossible in the wet) is on the true left eg. right when climbing up. It's very straightforward and I've taken novices up it several times.

To the true right, there are a number of anchors, which I believe were installed from the bottom up to facilitate a rescue. This would be a very challenging climb without the anchors, but it is out of the water. With the anchors in place, I think it must be possible to aid-climb up, but I've never tried it.

 

[langcliffe]

I'm slightly confused by which left/ right you mean...

The easiest climb (which is very easy in the dry, but impossible in the wet) is on the true left eg. right when climbing up. It's very straightforward and I've taken novices up it several times.

Ian was responding to my comment, which uses left and right in the orthodox sense for this context:

"The bottom pitch of Swinsto is problematic. In normal conditions, one can free climb down the left-hand side and remain dry. I have never been tempted by the CNCC P-bolts. The traverse round to the right is dry and elegant, but some people might be reluctant to commit themselves to the bolting."

 

[Cavematt]

As Simpson and Swinsto are the names of our two cats, I feel loathed to choose between them!

However, as pull-through trips go, Swinsto wins every time for me, with a much more interesting amount of horizontal development, streamway and superior pitches. Split Pitch is just splendid, a proper, wet Yorkshire Dales pitch, and the passages beyond are awesome following the water.

Simpson, I find far less interesting overall and it all happens too quickly with not much to get excited about. I’m not a fan of submersion, so the duck is a detractor and Slit Pot is a pain in the arse to get onto, and the pitch itself isn’t really that great. I do like the alternative Great Aven descent (an alternative to Slit Pot), although this is harder to arrange as a pull-through as there is quite an exposed traverse to the top if I remember rightly and I can't remember how well placed the anchors are for pull-through.

So, as the superior pull-through trip it’s a vote for Swinsto for me... although if I was pushed for time and needed to be home in a hurry, Simpson is probably quicker.

Ps; Our next cats will be called Rowten and Vesper!

 

[Ian Adams]

So fully respecting Fatmans choice, even though he is clearly wrong,

Just because that made me laugh, Swinsto

 

[Ian P]

Rope wise, I take the same set up for both caves.
32m of 9mm Gleinstein in one small “working” bag.

And in a separate “emergency”bag (kept attached to me)
20m of 8mm *cough* rope
30m of 6mm Petzl RAD line

This set up works for both caves, only needing to pinch a bit from the “emergency bag” to use as a tag line on the Great Aven route.

 

[JoshW]

Rope wise, I take the same set up for both caves.
32m of 9mm Gleinstein in one small “working” bag.

And in a separate “emergency”bag (kept attached to me)
20m of 8mm *cough* rope
30m of 6mm Petzl RAD line

This set up works for both caves, only needing to pinch a bit from the “emergency bag” to use as a tag line on the Great Aven route.

This set up interests me, having taken chuffing loads of rope down swinsto last time, I’m intrigued, can you talk through as I’m sure some of the pitches are over 16m

 

[Ian Ball]

What's the technique with a small string pull down rope used on the continent? cordage?

With a 32mm rope tied to a 20m 8mm or 30m 6mm you'd have a pull down of 29m or so and you would be able to tell which was the abseil side, 6mm! My rope bag has thicker tie up cord!