Swinsto - Warning

[Greybeard]

For some reason, in the last month, the traverse/safety ropes at the head of some of the pitches have been changed. In some cases the traverse line has been tied to both pull down bolts, making them unreliable to use, and a mallion attached to the bolts which appears to be intended for the pull down rope. Using these results in the rope kinking badly, and on the longer pitches will inevitably jam.
This arrangement is perfectly safe for a fixed rigging trip ( down & back up ) but Swinsto is one of the classic pull thro's and the pull thro' bolts must be left clear.
It requires stripping out and returning to the previous arrangement as soon as possible before a party gets stranded! ( spanner & knife required )

 

[hannahb]

Perhaps this could be a good opportunity to remove the ropes and maillons and not replace them - they're not necessary for a pull-through or hard rigged trip, and they are a relatively recent addition (as far as I know). I'm happy to go and take them out soonish unless someone gets there first.

 

[langcliffe]

I found today that the phantom P-hanger clogger has been at work in Short Drop. He had left a substantial maillon on the second bolt of the small pitch, unfortunately too large for the spanner I had taken with me for just that eventuality. It looks like I will have to invest in a small adjustable spanner for caving, just to remove the extraneous ironmongery. It must be costing someone a tidy sum.

 

[Badlad]

Did the Turbary Pot through trip to Swinsto yesterday. I'm sure this has been asked before, but,.... what is the vertical bolt ladder for on the last pitch [of Swinsto or Simpsons for that matter] ? We were at a loss to think of a good explanation.

 

[Fjell]

I don't know, but it makes for a way better hang if you are rigging it. Does anyone know why it is rigged under the boulder in the water in the first place?

The only possible reason is that it means you can easily get up the pitch. The only people remotely interested in that would be CRO you would think.

 

[langcliffe]

Did the Turbary Pot through trip to Swinsto yesterday. I'm sure this has been asked before, but,.... what is the vertical bolt ladder for on the last pitch [of Swinsto or Simpsons for that matter] ? We were at a loss to think of a good explanation.

I was told it was to enable the CRO to get up the pitch when it's wet, if necessary..

 

[A_Northerner]

The bolts are yellow CRO bolts (or were, if the yellow has faded yet).

 

[topcat]

Yes, the bolts under the boulder are one of quite a few head-scratchers in the Dales: modern resin anchors routed right down the water for no good reason)

Needs fixing.....

 

[Badlad]

Interesting. I would have thought CRO would have liaised with CNCC/BCA anchor installers, or amongst their own expertise for a better permanent rigging solution. As it is these are a poor conservation choice. In addition, the anchors are poorly installed, with some not perpendicular to the face and others with spalled chips around the fixing. There are much better choices which could achieve the same access, if such access was really necessary for rescue is another debate.

 

[s_allshorn]

Interesting. I would have thought CRO would have liaised with CNCC/BCA anchor installers, or amongst their own expertise for a better permanent rigging solution. As it is these are a poor conservation choice. In addition, the anchors are poorly installed, with some not perpendicular to the face and others with spalled chips around the fixing. There are much better choices which could achieve the same access, if such access was really necessary for rescue is another debate.

I belief they were placed to reach a trapped party.

 

[PeteHall]

I belief they were placed to reach a trapped party.

If memory serves correct, they were placed in 2009. Incident 62 in the CRO report looks like the one, but I might be wrong:

https://cro.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CRO-Incidents-2001-2010-compressed.pdf

Coincidentally, we rigged this route off naturals during the "self-rescue" stage of CRO Incident 11, 2008 (same link above). My own opinion (having nearly drowned myself going back up the usual SRT route) is that in flood conditions, this route to bypass the water is essential and the anchors are a definite improvement on the naturals we used.

 

[Badlad]

That incident (62 in 2009) says that the Swinsto party were met by CRO making their way out along the high level traverse in the master cave. The group at the top of Slit Pot in Simpsons were assisted out via Great Aven by a CRO team who had descended Simpsons. That doesn't seem to account for the bolt ladder.

I asked a long standing CRO member about them last night. He couldn't recall a specific incident when a bolted ladder was used to reach a trapped party. The conclusion we came to was that they were likely placed as a 'just in case' measure but not used in anger. No one seems to be sure.

 

[Ian Ball]

What is a bolt ladder?

 

[Tom]

That incident (62 in 2009) says that the Swinsto party were met by CRO making their way out along the high level traverse in the master cave. The group at the top of Slit Pot in Simpsons were assisted out via Great Aven by a CRO team who had descended Simpsons. That doesn't seem to account for the bolt ladder.

I asked a long standing CRO member about them last night. He couldn't recall a specific incident when a bolted ladder was used to reach a trapped party. The conclusion we came to was that they were likely placed as a 'just in case' measure but not used in anger. No one seems to be sure.

Bolts were placed on this pitch during a rescue of a casualty from below the Split Pitch in high water conditions on 18.07.1999. The casualty had abseiled on the wrong half of a doubled rope during a PT trip and fell about 15m or so, injuring both legs. The initial rescuers free climbed up under a waterfall but, subsequently, bolts were placed to assist additional rescuers and in the evacuation of the injured caver. It's obviously a long time ago, and memory fades, so I'm not sure if all the bolts were placed then, or if some were added later. Tom Redfern

 

[Pitlamp]

What is a bolt ladder?

A line of in situ bolts, each of which can be reached from the preceding one in an upwards direction. Etriers (or two ends of a caving ladder) can be clipped in and used as an aid to ascent, or a rope and SRT gear can be used in similar fashion.

 

[Pitlamp]

I suspect the term originates from the world of climbing, in a slightly derogatory context, from the days when there was a great wave of interest in freeing what were originally aid routes. Many of the fine crack climbs at Millstone Edge (Derbyshire) provide a good example.

 

[PeteHall]

Bolts were placed on this pitch during a rescue of a casualty from below the Split Pitch in high water conditions on 18.07.1999. The casualty had abseiled on the wrong half of a doubled rope during a PT trip and fell about 15m or so, injuring both legs. The initial rescuers free climbed up under a waterfall but, subsequently, bolts were placed to assist additional rescuers and in the evacuation of the injured caver. It's obviously a long time ago, and memory fades, so I'm not sure if all the bolts were placed then, or if some were added later. Tom Redfern

Interesting. However, the bolts in question were placed after our 2008 incident. There were no visible bolts prior to that. Perhaps the 1999 bolts were spits and hard to spot if you don't know that they are there?

My recollection is that it was a fire service group who had to be reached from the bottom up, but it was 2nd hand information a decade ago, so I may very well be wrong. The incident I mentioned in my previous post seemed about the right time. If that was the occasion, the rescue team may have placed the bolts to reach the bottom of Slit Pot (from where they saw lights above).

Interestingly, there are also a couple of bolts on the far side of the chamber, exactly where we used a human anchor to (try to) keep our casualty out of the water.

 

[Tom]

Interesting. However, the bolts in question were placed after our 2008 incident. There were no visible bolts prior to that. Perhaps the 1999 bolts were spits and hard to spot if you don't know that they are there?

My recollection is that it was a fire service group who had to be reached from the bottom up, but it was 2nd hand information a decade ago, so I may very well be wrong. The incident I mentioned in my previous post seemed about the right time. If that was the occasion, the rescue team may have placed the bolts to reach the bottom of Slit Pot (from where they saw lights above).

Interestingly, there are also a couple of bolts on the far side of the chamber, exactly where we used a human anchor to (try to) keep our casualty out of the water.

You are probably right about spits in the 1999 incident. However during the Aug 2009 rescue (according to my logbook) the volume of water was too high for the team to ascend to the base of Slit Pot. The lights at the top of Slit were seen from the floor of Great Aven. That may have prompted the bolt ladder to be put in after that but I can't recall.

 

[Badlad]

Thanks Tom and Pete for your input and memories. It has helped answer my original question. It does seem most likely that they were retro fitted after, but because of, those significant rescues. Perhaps the thinking was to extend wet weather access along side the high level master cave route as that would make sense. That's going to be ten or fifteen years ago now and times change. I expect that if such a bolt ladder was being considered today a wider consultation would take place.

Installing a bolt ladder for rescue in case it is needed could be seen as being similar to enlarging squeezes for the same reason etc. Those sort of things benefit from a wide consensus if such a thing is possible. Anyway I am only being curious on the issue as i have trouble forming a view on the rights and wrongs of these sort of fixed aids. Cheers

 

[Fjell]

From this I gather that one or other of the crawls from Great Aven to the master cave is passable in most conditions? It’s the bit I have always wondered about having never been there in flood.

I would be cool with removing the existing P bolts and putting new ones on the right wall out of the water and away from fractured rock. Otherwise leave the existing expansion bolts in as it makes it much saner to rig - I doubt they are going to fall off by themselves in my lifetime.