8mm static rope near death experience.

[Jenbob83]

Basically just a warning to everyone to be extra careful using 8mm srt rope. Was assending a 110 m mine shaft and found this a few metres from the top. The out side had completely gone with just a few internal strands left. I don’t think it would have lasted much longer. Dispite extra effort with rigging it still rubbed to much. After trying this id only recommend it for over hangs and emergency use.

 

[langcliffe]

Basically just a warning to everyone to be extra careful using 8mm srt rope. Was assending a 110 m mine shaft and found this a few metres from the top. The out side had completely gone with just a few internal strands left. I don’t think it would have lasted much longer. Dispite extra effort with rigging it still rubbed to much. After trying this id only recommend it for over hangs and emergency use.

For this to have happened. the rope must have had a rub point. As far as I am concerned, rub points are a no-no, no matter how thick the rope is.

 

[georgenorth]

Basically just a warning to everyone to be extra careful using 8mm srt rope. Was assending a 110 m mine shaft and found this a few metres from the top. The out side had completely gone with just a few internal strands left. I don’t think it would have lasted much longer. Dispite extra effort with rigging it still rubbed to much. After trying this id only recommend it for over hangs and emergency use.

I don’t think you’re in any position to be ‘recommending’ anything. You got lucky - rope is fragile - be (much) more careful in the future.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

We all make mistakes.
About 30 years ago I rigged Great Aven very well, as I thought, without realising that stretch in a deviation cord brought the rope into contact with the rock a bit higher.
The sheath had gone completely by the time the first person was back up.
It's not the rope, it's the rigger.
I was much more careful after that.

 

[Jenbob83]

I don’t think you’re in any position to be ‘recommending’ anything. You got lucky - rope is fragile - be (much) more careful in the future.tha

Thanks for such a constructive and pleasant reply. Well you will love invincible rope technique then. But really its impossible to rig cone shafts with out a few rub points. Normally a rope protector is fine with 9 mm rope, indeed the rop next to it was just fine. Its the extra stretch that caused the issues.

 

[Jenbob83]

I don’t think you’re in any position to be ‘recommending’ anything. You got lucky - rope is fragile - be (much) more careful in the future.

Well thanks for such a demeaning response.

 

[badger]

If cone shaft has that many rub points, then maybe it needs more rebelays or deviations so to avoid said rub points

 

[Loki]

I hope you bought a lottery ticket on your way home. I don’t think G means it quite like that. There’s no such thing as rubbing too much. Any rub at all is too much. 8mm rope is very well known to be death on a stick at the best of times.

 

[Wolfo]

Oh, we even use hyperstatic 6mm...

Such a rope damage is 100% human error, or better said - bad rigging practice. Even a standard European 11mm rope only holds up insignificant longer against abration. Only thick wall sheath polyester ropes behave better in such situations...or steel cables.

 

[Lankyman]

Has anyone else ever considered the psychology of using 'skinny' ropes? I never encountered them in caving but did in climbing. A friend produced one as we were setting off up Central Buttress on Esk Buttress. It just looked too thin and definitely affected me making me feel nervous and over cautious. I think if I was on a very big pitch I'd want something that at least looked sturdy.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Disasters are usually the combination of two or three things. Poor choice on top of a bad situation of some kind of top of plain bad luck. Often these factors add to 3 (or more) in disasters.

Example I had to study many years ago (Kegworth) pilots have an engine failure and distracted at that moment and the controls layout was unintuitive -- lead to shutdown of good engine: and so landing short of runway (life loss, hull loss).

I'd say that mines are more likely (on balance... individual circumstances vary!) to have sub-optimal rigging points, loose and sharp rock than caves. So you should factor that in to decisions if you're not already totally familiar with the drops/rigging.

Personally: I prefer a 10mm cheap and robust rope access style rope for mines. Absolutely not 8mm. But that's my personal choice!

I'd agree with your post that 8mm rope is adding and extra factor of risk and a large one in mines. Learn from lessons (we've all done daft things even if we don't like to admit).

Stay safe. Enjoy ..

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Has anyone else ever considered the psychology of using 'skinny' ropes? I never encountered them in caving but did in climbing. A friend produced one as we were setting off up Central Buttress on Esk Buttress. It just looked too thin and definitely affected me making me feel nervous and over cautious. I think if I was on a very big pitch I'd want something that at least looked sturdy.

I don't consider it from a cerebral psychological point of view, but I have fouled my trousers , if that's what you meant

 

[legendrider]

Fair Play to Jenbob83 for owning it, and sharing the lessons learned - take from it what you will.
As humans, we all make mistakes, and putting the issue under the spotlight reminds us all against insidious complacency.

MARK

 

[Mark Wright]

Basically just a warning to everyone to be extra careful using 8mm srt rope. Was assending a 110 m mine shaft and found this a few metres from the top. The out side had completely gone with just a few internal strands left. I don’t think it would have lasted much longer. Dispite extra effort with rigging it still rubbed to much. After trying this id only recommend it for over hangs and emergency use.

8mm accessory cord, which is really all any 8mm 'SRT rope' is, should only be used by expert cavers who understand the safety critical importance of ensuring there are absolutely no rub points in the rigging.

Thanks for such a constructive and pleasant reply. Well you will love invincible rope technique then. But really its impossible to rig cone shafts with out a few rub points. Normally a rope protector is fine with 9 mm rope, indeed the rop next to it was just fine. Its the extra stretch that caused the issues.

By 'Invincible Rope Techniques' do you mean the US Indestructible Rope Techniques (IRT), to give it its proper name? For this technique you wouldn't really want to be using anything other than at least an 11mm rope with a heavy duty sheath, and even then using suitable rope pads where there is some abrasion.

The rope above you doesn't stretch very much at all when you are only a few metres down from the anchor point so I'm not sure how the 'extra stretch' would have contributed to the rope being damaged. Every time you make a step up the rope it's going to bounce with your weight. When the 'localised abrasion' is close to an anchor point there is much more likelihood of sheath damage than when the abrasion point is 100m below the anchor point.

There was a lot of discussion and extensive testing in the rope access industry some years ago following a fatality in the offshore industry where a technician had an abrasion point close to the anchor which resulted in his rope failing catastrophically. He then fell onto his back-up line which rubbed against the same abrasion point and also failed.

I did some pretty shoddy rigging when I first got into SRT but luckily got away with it due to the ropes I was using being 11mm.

You don't really want to be learning SRT rigging on 8mm accessory cord.

You are definitely very lucky to be alive to tell your tale. I'd buy yourself some proper SRT rope and learn the importance of proper 'safe' rigging.

 

[Jenbob83]

I’m We had rigged a 9mm rope along side that came from same rigging it was fine. Ive rigged the shaft the same a few times. Just shows how extremely fragile that 8 mm rope is. A lot of shafts are very unstable and unstable to be bolting off. The shafts are not straight either so its a case of using rope protectors on the points thats you can’t stop rubbing. Often you trying not to touch stuff thats extremely unstable. Even a slight push could bring everything down on top of you. As you can see its very difficult to rig. Its like a cone of death.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I’m We had rigged a 9mm rope along side that came from same rigging it was fine. Ive rigged the shaft the same a few times. Just shows how extremely fragile that 8 mm rope is. A lot of shafts are very unstable and unstable to be bolting off. The shafts are not straight either so its a case of using rope protectors on the points thats you can’t stop rubbing. Often you trying not to touch stuff thats extremely unstable. Even a slight push could bring everything down on top of you. As you can see its very difficult to rig. Its like a cone of death.

Don't abseil with a rucksack on (2nd pic). Or you'll be posting in a while about the time you were free hanging with a heavier rucksack and uncontrollably flipped upside down (been there... NEVER again). Hang it below you maybe using a short cows tail if available, or a bag tether if not. Learn from my mistake

 

[Jenbob83]

8mm accessory cord, which is really all any 8mm 'SRT rope' is, should only be used by expert cavers who understand the safety critical importance of ensuring there are absolutely no rub points in the rigging.

By 'Invincible Rope Techniques' do you mean the US Indestructible Rope Techniques (IRT), to give it its proper name? For this technique you wouldn't really want to be using anything other than at least an 11mm rope with a heavy duty sheath, and even then using suitable rope pads where there is some abrasion.

The rope above you doesn't stretch very much at all when you are only a few metres down from the anchor point so I'm not sure how the 'extra stretch' would have contributed to the rope being damaged. Every time you make a step up the rope it's going to bounce with your weight. When the 'localised abrasion' is close to an anchor point there is much more likelihood of sheath damage than when the abrasion point is 100m below the anchor point.

There was a lot of discussion and extensive testing in the rope access industry some years ago following a fatality in the offshore industry where a technician had an abrasion point close to the anchor which resulted in his rope failing catastrophically. He then fell onto his back-up line which rubbed against the same abrasion point and also failed.

I did some pretty shoddy rigging when I first got into SRT but luckily got away with it due to the ropes I was using being 11mm.

You don't really want to be learning SRT rigging on 8mm accessory cord.

You are definitely very lucky to be alive to tell your tale. I'd buy yourself some proper SRT rope and learn the importance of proper 'safe' rigging.

Im just pointing out 8mm rope can rub were a 9mm rope would be just fine in same situation and show no damage. I do understand the importance of good rigging. That shaft has already killed one mine explorer. I don’t think you get how unstable shafts can be, drilling a bolt could well be the last thing you do xx

 

[aricooperdavis]

Any rub at all is too much.

I don't think this is true. When we put a knot on a carabiner that's rope rub, but it's not too much. If we were to tie directly into a plate hanger it may become too much because of the bend radius.

The OP is right that it's impossible to completely avoid rub in some scenarios, particularly in mine exploring. You can mitigate it, such as using rope protectors, or steel strops so you're not worried about the rub, but it's still rub.

For me this post is a good caution not to be blasé about the risks of rope rub, and a reminder that rope rub becomes increasingly important as your sheath diameter reduces. For the OP I'd suggest adding some different approaches to handling rope rub to your arsenal - rope pro, strops, deviations etc.

 

[Lankyman]

I don't consider it from a cerebral psychological point of view, but I have fouled my trousers , if that's what you meant

Thankfully, I've only crapped myself metaphorically speaking. It wouldn't be great for your second on a pitch. I've encountered a few actual turds around the base of crags (put my bag in one once!) so it does seem to be an 'issue' for some.

 

[porgzilla]

May I ask where you descended?

And thank you for sharing, I've learnt a bunch between yourself and the comments.
I also never considered that deviation stretch could lead to rubbing; I'll stick to slings