A Matter of Concern ?

[The Old Ruminator]

My club has sent out a PDF ( which I did not read ). Something to do with the risk of litigation to club members. Are my home and assets at risk at all by being a member of a club ? To be honest from my point of view there is little to be gained by being in a club. Of course the old question was " what do I get from being a club member ?" Answer then being its not what you get its what you give. So what do I get from being in my two clubs ? Well I can get BCA insurance on my own account. OK Not that. I get a paper journal on a very infrequent basis. I am a miserable old man and don’t do club socials and have never caved with a club. Hostel fees may be a fiver a night for members but £15 non members. I have my own kit. A get access to club forums. Ahh but I have this forum to splurge photos. For £100 or more a year you could say that I get sod all for my money. If there is any risk at all to me by being a club member then I am better off out of it. Learned comment please about the litigation thing as its quite worrying.

 

[alanw]

A couple of weeks ago one of my mountaineering clubs sent out an email about changing to being a "Company Limited by Guarantee". One of the reasons was "limits the liability of any Member to £1". Perhaps your club is considering doing the same?

 

[alanw]

My caving club is a Registered Society under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014. The law says Their members’ liability for the society’s debts is limited to the amount they contributed on becoming a member and our constitution says The capital of the Club shall consist of shares of the value of five pence each and No Member shall hold more than one share,

 

[ChrisB]

Well I can get BCA insurance on my own account.

At the moment, legally, the BCA is an unincorporated association, that is, a club. So you are actually a member of a club. BCA is currently moving towards becoming a Company Limited by Guarantee, which will limit your liability to £1.

A lot of the things that might give rise a liability for BCA or its member clubs are covered by BCA insurance, so it may not be a big risk.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

A couple of weeks ago one of my mountaineering clubs sent out an email about changing to being a "Company Limited by Guarantee". One of the reasons was "limits the liability of any Member to £1". Perhaps your club is considering doing the same?

Thats what it sounded like.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The chestnut of whether a club should remain unincorporated or go incorporated runs back decades to when a certain Mendip based club was served notice of being sued following an accident to one of its members. The primary benefit of an incorporated club (that is recognised as a legal entity so it can be sued) is that the liability of its membership is limited to some trivial sum, excepting of course those members who were involved in the event which gave rise to the legal action seeking recompense. An unincorporated club is not recognised as a legal entity so such an action has to be placed against all members.

Given an underlying rule of such actions is only sue those who have money, the action against that Mendip club not only named the club, but also several wealthy members who according to gossip had bugger all to do with the accident. (The case was settled out of court with no details being released.) So it comes down to how likely is your club to be sued. Notable clubs who went incorporated include the Bradford and Craven mainly because of running the GG winch meets. When I last tried to check, I think there was a few tens of clubs within BCA who are incorporated. And I think most of them had club huts, so had some value as a club as well as being another source of hazards giving rise to liabilities.

What is of value is having personal insurance such as that which forms part of being an individual member of BCA, as not only does it have a fair chance of covering the cost if found liable, but also covers the cost of defending oneself even if one is found not liable. Or indeed for the legal activity just warding off a 'fishing' case by a no win, no fee lawyer. There are however a few caving related activities which I would suggest do require careful thought over insurance cover, notably being part of an Access Controlling Body or selling gear.

But the answer to the first question "Are my home and assets at risk" is YES, unless you have insurance against that particular risk. Which is why BCA membership is well worth the peace of mind for both individuals and clubs.

However, I'm afraid my primary advice to you is to read the document and see why some people within your club want to go incorporated. Maybe they think to risk to them is unacceptable and could leave the club, possibly leaving you holding the 'baby'.

 

[ChrisB]

There is another very good reason to become incorporated, apart from liability, and that is to be able to prove your bona fides. The money laundering regulations require all financial bodies to "know your customer" and the easy way for them to do that is to look you up on the Companies House website, or equivalent. That gives them directors names, latest accounts, etc, all verified by a government agency. There is no register of unincorporated clubs, so they may just decide not to take your business.

 

[tdobson]

I've benefited a great deal from the various online workshops and resources that Buddle (Sport England's Club support resources) have put out.

The workshop on Legal Structures was one that at the time felt like a waste of time, but increasingly feels valuable.

There's no one size fits all. Different organisations at different stages of maturity and complexity suit different structures. It's not impenetrably complicated. It's just horses for courses.

 

[kay]

At the moment, legally, the BCA is an unincorporated association, that is, a club. So you are actually a member of a club. BCA is currently moving towards becoming a Company Limited by Guarantee, which will limit your liability to £1.

A lot of the things that might give rise a liability for BCA or its member clubs are covered by BCA insurance, so it may not be a big risk.

Will this also protect members/officers of its constituent bodies eg CNCC?

 

[ChrisB]

Will this also protect members/officers of its constituent bodies eg CNCC?

BCA becoming a Company Limited by Guarantee (CLG) will not change the status of constituent bodies. They will continue to be protected by the BCA Public Liability insurance, assuming that the matter is within its scope.

Depending on the exact structure BCA adopt, Constituent Body representatives on BCA Council would probably be protected against BCA liabilities (the BCA insurance covers them at present).

While you didn't ask this, it would be difficult for CNCC to become a CLG because it's controlled by clubs. A CLG must be controlled by its members, who must be 'legal persons', ie, individuals or corporate bodies. While some CNCC member clubs are corporate (CPC and BPC are registered societies, is a CLG, there may be more) most are unincorporated.

 

[ChrisB]

(CPC and BPC are registered societies, is a CLG,

Apologies, didn't spot this in time for the edit window, that should be (CPC and BPC are registered societies, CCDG is a CLG,...

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Don't know about litigation/liability, but in my case (your situation may vary) having caved outside of the club "system", some areas de facto require membership of a club, due to having keys/codes and restrictions on the right sort of person, which generally means a club member usually expressed as a "bona fide caver". (Not opening that can of worms, just leaving it as an observation). In my limited experience as well as the obvious social side, there's often the access side of membership too, including BCA membership for access in some places.

However if your social circles mean you can already ask people about keys if you need, without needing a club membership, then that benefit is probably negated.

 

[Pitlamp]

Don't forget another massive advantage of being in a club which has a good caving library.

 

[Daniel Rose]

Caving clubs keep caving alive, and without them the sport would soon dwindle to a few elderly people, and then go extinct entirely. They're one of the best bits of the culture imo

 

[ChrisB]

I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of clubs - a club is still a club whether it's incorporated or not. Being a company doesn't change anything except reducing financial risk, making it easier to deal with banks and credit card providers and a bit of extra accounts paperwork.

 

[darren]

From government website.

An unincorporated association’ is an organisation set up through an agreement between a group of people who come together for a reason other than to make a profit (for example, a voluntary group or a sports club).

You do not need to register an unincorporated association, and it does not cost anything to set one up.

Individual members are personally responsible for any debts and contractual obligations.

I belive that pooling of sharing costs can be a factor in deciding this.

Sounds like the description of several digging teams I know off. If I was in a digging team I would be as worried about this as club legal issues. At least in a club you have insurance and a lot of other members to hide behind.

If, for instance a digging team were to flood a village liabilities could in theory be large.

 

[mikem]

Hopefully all diggers are BCA insured, whether they are in a club or not

 

[The Old Ruminator]

We filed a separate digging agreement with the landowner of the mine we are working in. It was quite complex as it was drawn up by their solicitors. The cost was £2,000 in fees but for some odd reason the landowner paid half. Group members were all named and the agreement could be terminated immediately by either side with no reason. We would be given time to remove any digging tools left below. That was nearly five years ago. We had an initial meeting with the landowners agent on site but have seen nobody since. One particular clause was the anonymity clause which meant that we cannot name the site publically. Posting anonymised photos was not a problem. Being site specific with agreements might be more a benefit than an overall situation. To be honest it now seems to have reached the point where its all so ruddy complicated.

 

[Badlad]

I think that the last reason you should join a club is for the insurance. There should be every other reason first. Although insurance can be a comfort blanket for the risk adverse the reality is that insurance is mostly unnecessary. Of course, the multi billion pound insurance industry will have you think differently as will those that sell it or offer it as a benefit to membership. I emphasize "mostly unnecessary".

In relation to digging I was recently surprised just how unlikely it is that the BCA insurance cover would pay out a claim. The circumstances where the cover would actually meet a claim appears to be so specific it is very unlikely to meet diggers/cavers expectations.

 

[pwhole]

I do wonder whether the BCA cover extends to digging activities 'on behalf of' a large statutory body or charity as 'specialist volunteers'? Rebuilding a mine entrance on CROW land, for example. I have no idea whether the body will already have PI insurance to cover their volunteer work. Also whether the cover would extend to cover 'accidental damage' to a Scheduled Monument during the course of approved volunteer work - with no written agreement in place. All of which I'm currently in the middle of.

Let's say an old lady working as a volunteer in a National Trust garden trips over a rake, and knocks her best friend through a greenhouse window. And then translate that into a caving context - that's where we are again. It's all a bit murky, so we try not to have accidents

However, I don't feel being in a club has given me any more protection in this particular situation.