David Rose
Active member
It would involve a lot of crawling!
Agen Allwedd - Priory Road Exploration
- Thread starter marsrat
- Start date
Jedexertus
Active member
I would say through trip time would be around 9 /10 hours average for faster not large cavers that already know the route well with a small bag pouch etc, a larger bag will slow you a group significantly, there is lots of navigational challenges especially near and at the ends of both caves a few very easy places to go wrong and waist alot of time, aswell as alot of tight awkward places along the route and lots of crawling. A potential 10 hour trip could turn into 15 or 20 easily with a group of say 4 people getting tired / lost / larger cavers struggling in the awkward tight areas etc. Stopping to read descriptions and looking at surveys soon adds a good bit more time to trips aswell. The daren round trip is about a 3.5 /4 hour trip and it takes groups 10 hours. A trip the the courtesan and back should be 6 /7 hours ish and that's takes alot of group 10 /12 hours. Imo people attempting the through trip once it's complete people should be given themselves a 24 hour call as having a cave rescue call out for overdue cavers is a high risk and the effort and manpower needed for the team to set up a seach n rescue in both systems is crazy, it would be a good idea that someone in the group has already been to the ends of both caves and knows the route. Also i think the through trip should be done from Aggy to Daren and if people get that exhausted later in the trip they have the Restaurant REU camp to potentially crash at not ideal as basically just roll matts, there is enough stuff there to rest and probably stay warm, also there is Hardrock camp, although I don't think people should be attempting the through trip with any intention of stopping at and using any of the camps other than a sit down rest etc, no using anyones personal gear unless it is an actual emergency etc.
Jedexertus
Active member
Me and Adrian F did the end if daren Spaderunner/ Updweeb/ archies day trip. Last Saturday and it took 14.45 we waited 1 hour in Updweeb sound and draft testing and had maybe 20 minutes worth of breaks throughout the day. I've felt worse after an aggy digging weekend lol but this was probably the hardest single days caving ive done and the longest continuous physical caving ill be in no rush to do this again on a day trip but something ive been wanting to do for a while now
the round trip will be easier than this one 
Below a diary of times from this trip with knowing the route no stopping for navigational checks or anything
Jedexertus
Active member
7 hours last spit choke the very end of Spaderunner ? Who ? If true that's incredible
Tritim230
Well-known member
You are doing a fantastic job.Thank you . I know pretty much zero about redhouse other than you have found shit loads of new cave, it's such a shame a group pirated your round trip it's not on if they deliberately did an knew you hadn't done the trip yourselves. There is no way anyone could just stumbled upon our dig in aggy and accidentally do the round trip it would have to be a calculated and deliberate. Once the connection is completed and passable the round trip will be getting completed by the team that is down that paticular day / weekend no matter what. There will be no lets wait a few days or until next week no way .
It isn't just the hard work and time required, it is also the pain of organising everything.
Sometimes it feels like herding the impossible.
We wish you all the best. You deserve this link.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Just out of interest, how long would it take some arbitrary "average caver" to get from Agy entrance to Rockhard campsite (one way). You mentioned day trip diggers...?
David Rose
Active member
Me and Adrian F did the end if daren Spaderunner/ Updweeb/ archies day trip. Last Saturday and it took 14.45 we waited 1 hour in Updweeb sound and draft testing and had maybe 20 minutes worth of breaks throughout the day. I've felt worse after an aggy digging weekend lol but this was probably the hardest single days caving ive done and the longest continuous physical caving ill be in no rush to do this again on a day trip but something ive been wanting to do for a while now
View attachment 23441
Below a diary of times from this trip with knowing the route no stopping for navigational checks or anything
View attachment 23440
These are amazing times. 1 hr 35 from Hardrock to Restaurant! Respect.
Jedexertus
Active member
Ive caved down to camp with just a side pouch in 1.17 . Alex Stacey has caved out in just over 1 hour 1.05 ish i think ? But these are fast no stop times. On average times are anywhere from 1.5 to 3 hours with a bag, depending on size and weight generally 3 / 4 of us going down on a Friday with kit collecting water and washing up at streamway it's average 3 hours of misery with an always big heavy bag as i like my luxury liquids
milk / orange juice / wine / beer etc aswell as whatever else food kit is need.
marsrat
Well-known member
If you’re fit and you know the way (without a tackle bag) 2h35.
asheshouse
Member
Much credit is owed to Tim Flanagan, for providing the motivation in the 1980’s for a large team to tidy up Southern Stream and so make the passage much easier.
marsrat
Well-known member
Digging in the environs of Aggy is not easy, and is not to be underestimated. Many cavers have described it as the hardest trip they have done. We had two dropouts this weekend, who were not able to get to the dig site. They reached camp, used up communal resources and did not dig. We are not interested in these people.
You must be fit, and fearless. You must be able to work for 16h+. It is not for everybody.
We are not looking for freeloaders. We are not looking for those who simply want an experience. We are there to dig.
We welcome everybody who are fit, committed, diligent. You will be deeply rewarded here if you are one of these cavers. Please check if you are one of these cavers, if not then for your/our benefit do not ask to come.
You must be fit, and fearless. You must be able to work for 16h+. It is not for everybody.
We are not looking for freeloaders. We are not looking for those who simply want an experience. We are there to dig.
We welcome everybody who are fit, committed, diligent. You will be deeply rewarded here if you are one of these cavers. Please check if you are one of these cavers, if not then for your/our benefit do not ask to come.
Interesting - back when I was camping regularly, I used to reckon on less than 1:20hrs between REU & HRC but dont think I ever achieved below 3:20hrs between HRC and the entrance (obviously with tackle bag).
So sub 5hrs to REU was normal and some others would achieve faster times. Add in 2-3hrs caving beyond REU and whatever is needed in Aggy (and no need to carry heavy tackle bags for camping) and the estimate of 9-12hrs seems realistic.
However nowadays it would take me a lot longer I'm sure!
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Stuart France
Active member
How sad. Wisdom might come with older age but so do other things too unfortunately, like slowing down, becoming more prone to injury , and when you get one then it takes longer to mend itself. Obviously after 60 or 70 it is pointless competing with people who are 40 or 30 or even 20 something. It comes to us all eventually. But the thing is not to stop or give up: accept the changes of life and be thankful that you can still do the same activities you always have, and perhaps find some less stressful alternatives or additions too. But now it will be slower on the clock but it feels the same effort and so delivers the same sense of accomplishment, at least to yourself.
A caver that I know well but don't really associate with distance running recently came first in the 60+ veterans category on a long hilly course. Obviously his time was 'not great' set against what a fit 20-30yr old might run a marathon, but how many of us did the latter in our youth and would try, let alone succeed with the former in retirement?
A caver that I know well but don't really associate with distance running recently came first in the 60+ veterans category on a long hilly course. Obviously his time was 'not great' set against what a fit 20-30yr old might run a marathon, but how many of us did the latter in our youth and would try, let alone succeed with the former in retirement?
What's sad? Obviously as someone approaching his 60's I wouldn't expect to be compete with those still in their 20's and 30's. Besides caving (at least for me) has never been about competitiveness in terms of who's fastest etc. It's about a sense of achievement, the challenge, exploring remote places going where few have been, the camaraderie of the team, etc.
I do agree though - the important thing is to keep active and cave regularly if you wan't to continue it in to your ripe old age.
He did superbly. Congrats if you're reading this
Stuart France
Active member
What's sad is equating althleticism, 'speed caving' and the having shortest or target transit time to get from A to B, with some perceived validity of caving activities taken in the round. Caving isn't a competition; there is no league table; and there are no medals to win.
Jedexertus
Active member
So being competitive in caving is sad ? I personally don't think it's sad at all to want to be the best you can and see what you are capable of compared to others, to try and be the best when it comes to things that are hard / very hard sports endurance anything for that matter, i used to race dh mountain bikes to a high standard won races and podiums before i become a caver, why would anyone enter any competition race event if they didn't want to win or be the best you can ? Why would you dig in misery to find new passage make a connection if you didn't want to be the first best etc it's the same thing everything is a competition in some way shape or form. I am a very driven competitive person by nature as are may other cavers, I would love to be the fastest best caver/ best digger etc / witch i am not by any stretch of the imagination, be the first person in new passage to do something new round trip etc, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want that ? We all get old and are inevitably gonna slow down, but to look back at that point and know what you we're capable or and achieved is going to be very rewarding imo.
marsrat
Well-known member
Suppose the number of entrances a cave has isn’t a competition either
Jedexertus
Active member
Info update from 09/08/25 the team carried out our own sound and draught test between daren and aggy, myself and Adrian Fawcett CSS went to to end of Updweeb in daren cilau aswell as visiting last spit choke and Archies, whilst a team of 3 Christopher Holt / Emma Caspers SWCC / Elin West TSG went into aggy , both teams bashed lump hammers me and Adrian on solid bedrock on the right hand side of Updweeb not far from the very end choke. And the aggy team banged at the end of our dig at Donovans grief and around the vertical choke further back, me and Adrian could not hear anything from the aggy team but the aggy team could clearly hear us banging coming from ahead / left hand side of the dig / vertical choke areas, the end of our dig is solid clay fill and boulders witch I think is why we couldn't hear anything in daren as the clay is just absorbing all the sound and vibration, the team in aggy lit lavender joss sticks and we lit a citronella joss stick, the aggy team could quickly smell citronella joss stick coming from daren coming up in the floor slight back from the dig face. Me and Adrian could not smell lavender. At Updweeb the draft was mostly going up into the choke at the end of Updweeb and some back down the passage. The above has confirmed to the team personally that we are close and that the caves are actually 100% connected though choke and airspace etc
A rough sketch. Red is where everyone was banging, blue in daren is the choke blue in aggy is the hole in floor where smell was coming from
Below a sketch of draught directions the fact the end of Updweeb was drafting both ways suggests that there is a source of draught coming in from lower down somewhere aswell, when I was at the end of archies I could have sworn I smelt lavender coming up in the floor ? this was around an hour after the Updweeb banging, the aggy team had left the joss sticks burning, but it may have just been our own joss stick i could smell if the Updweeb passage is connected to Archies the floor ? The survey data may not be to accurate for archies apparently due to an added data leg or something ? That's mr Stacey's expertise i just dig lol but the archies position may not be 100% accurate ? The end or archies was heavily drafting from the floor and roof and out of the end a very interesting area along with Updweeb.
Our current plan is still the same and to keep digging in the same direction heading for the very end of the Updweeb choke past the solid bedrock on the right hand side before the end,
I will update from our last dig from a couple of weeks ago 15th /17th August in the coming week or so.
Looking up Updweeb choke
Me at last spit choke
Cheese !
A rough sketch. Red is where everyone was banging, blue in daren is the choke blue in aggy is the hole in floor where smell was coming from
Below a sketch of draught directions the fact the end of Updweeb was drafting both ways suggests that there is a source of draught coming in from lower down somewhere aswell, when I was at the end of archies I could have sworn I smelt lavender coming up in the floor ? this was around an hour after the Updweeb banging, the aggy team had left the joss sticks burning, but it may have just been our own joss stick i could smell if the Updweeb passage is connected to Archies the floor ? The survey data may not be to accurate for archies apparently due to an added data leg or something ? That's mr Stacey's expertise i just dig lol but the archies position may not be 100% accurate ? The end or archies was heavily drafting from the floor and roof and out of the end a very interesting area along with Updweeb.
Our current plan is still the same and to keep digging in the same direction heading for the very end of the Updweeb choke past the solid bedrock on the right hand side before the end,
I will update from our last dig from a couple of weeks ago 15th /17th August in the coming week or so.
Looking up Updweeb choke
Me at last spit choke
Cheese !
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