An effective treatment for knee pain

David Rose

Well-known member
This time a year ago, I thought my caving days might be over. A trip to the Picos in September 2016 was badly marred by nagging pain in my right knee, which I'd had intermittently before, but never anything like as bad. Through the autumn, it persisted. Eventually I managed to navigate the various hurdles set up by the NHS and managed to get myself an MRI scan. In January 2017 a consultant orthopaedic specialist gave me the result: I had arthritis. It was too far advanced to make an arthroscopy worthwhile. Eventually I would need a replacement knee, but given my age (then 57), he advised me too keep it going as long as I could by taking paracetamol and ibuprofen when necessary.

That did not sound like an attractive prospect. Long-term ibuprofen use damages the gut, and paracetamol the liver. And then... I discovered turmeric.

There is solid clinical evidence that the curcuminoid compounds in turmeric are a natural anti-inflammatory, that can alleviate or prevent both joint pain and other problems, including some cancers. However, turmeric on its own is not very 'bio-available', meaning you would need to consume large doses every day to notice an effect. The solution is capsules containing relatively high amounts of the curcuminoids (600 mg in the ones I am taking) combined with peperine or bio-perine, extracted from pepper. This increases the body's take-up of the curcuminoids.

The results have been striking. Since I started using the capsules twice a day - I get them online from America, at a cost of about ?60 for five months' supply - I have caved in Mexico, Mulu and twice in Riesending, a very challenging Alpine system in Germany. I have spent up to six days underground at a time and twice prussiked up Riesending's monster entrance series, a climb of 950 metres. Yesterday I enjoyed a seven-hour trip in and out of Ogof Cnwc, which involves a fair amount of crawling, and as we negotiated the gravelly grovels near the entrance on the way out the thought struck me again, as it has many times before: the knee was not bothering me at all.

I don't think this is a placebo effect. In the summer I went on a three-week family holiday and tried a different UK-made turmeric product, Turmeric Plus - and with a few days the pain was back. Then I read the small print: the curcuminoid dose was much lower, and for me at least, the lecithin (whey protein) extract it uses to increase the bio-availability was evidently less effective. On returning home I was back on the US capsules and within a bout 10 days I was back to normal.

Last week the media reported doctors' account of a woman with multiple myeloma who had survived ten years, apparently thanks to turmeric. I can't guarantee it will work for every old fart caver. But it certainly does for me. I don't want to use the forum for advertising, but if anyone wants to know the name of the product I use, they can send me a PM.

 
I found that Glucosamine and Chondroitin and a few extra vitamins (E, D) helps too.  Did something to my knee last year and it locked up completely.  Took a few weeks to sort itself out.
 
Eat plenty of oily fish (salmon, pilchards, tuna, etc). Works wonders for gammy knees.

Turmeric, of course, does have other health benefits evidently - in't it supposed to have anti cancer properties?

 
I think it's also been attributed to Weight loss.

I'm unsure about herbal remedies, Mum is a Pharmacist and says that the same active ingredient in a lot of herbal remedies is the same as the active ingredient in the refined tablets. Hence how both work, but the Herbal remedies also contain other "impurities" with unknown effects on the body (unless tested in a clinical test).

The active ingredient in curcuminoids are Diarylheptanoids, curcuminoids are part of the Ginger family Zingiberaceae.

A number of other plants contain Diarylheptanoids
Aceraceae
Acer
+
Betulaceae
Alnus
Betula
Corylus
Carpinus
Ostrya
+
Burseraceae
Garuga
Boswellia
+
Casuarinaceae
Casuarina
+
Dioscoreaceae
Dioscorea
Tacca
+
Juglandaceae
Juglans
Platycarya
Rhoiptelea
+
Leguminosae
Centrolobium
+
Myricaceae
Myrica
+
Santalaceae
Viscum
+

Zingiberaceae
Alpinia
Curcuma
Zingiber
Amomum
Aframomum
Etlingera
+

Source of the above families and genus' is https://epub.uni-regensburg.de/30859/1/Dissertation_Bibliothek_Jirasek.pdf
An interesting paper going through the synthetic and natural Diarylheptanoids and the effects they have.

See 1.5 for the effects of diarylheptanoids.
 
phizz4 said:
I need some of that. Where/how do you source it from the USA?

No need to go to the US.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=turmeric+capsule&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=155847860843&hvpos=1t2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6915502491078577790&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045540&hvtargid=kwd-321832008&ref=pd_sl_56ryxokqi_e

Or Holland and Barratt stock it but at inflatable prices.
 
I messed my knees up many years ago by playing too much squash, which I had given up before I started caving.
I had almost constant pain in both knees, I could not kneel properly, nor could I lock them straight.
I was prescribed anti inflammatory pills and pain killers, but I didn't want to take them long term.

Many years and many caving trips later I have no pain in either knee, I can kneel and lock them straight.
This has been achieved with Glucosamine and Chondroitin along with a Bioflow magnetic wrist band.
I do not take any anti inflammatory or pain killing pills.
The only thing I have to be careful doing underground is pushing and twisting my leg at the same time, so occasionally I have a very strange looking thrutch!
 
I used to suffer all the time with my knees (an MRI scan revealed cartilage wear and a torn meniscus in one) and I have used the Glucosamine/Cod liver combos ever since.
Now, as far as I know, this has never been scientifically proven to be any more effective than a placebo, but if it seems to help...

The one thing that HAS made a difference was a trip to the physio and chiro who, between them, gave me the best advice (for my condition) - wear pronation compensating footwear, do Yoga and avoid running on hard surfaces - this suits me as I enjoy cross-country/ off-road and really dislike the roads/pavements..

Thankfully I rarely have any issues these days..






 
Considering the nature of our sport I'm surprised that this isn't a constant topic of discussion on here. I've had knee problems on and off for many years and was told to give up silly activities such as caving and running by my GP. I eventually had an MRI with BUPA and most of my issues were because of muscle weakness (glutes) and tight hamstrings, I do however have some arthritis that has pretty much stopped my running. I've been taking turmeric daily and also use CBD (cannabis) oil if I do go for a run which definitely helps. I'm looking into Platelet Rich Plasma injections, both for my knees and for tennis elbow that just wont go away, has anyone on here had them....are they worth the money? 

Huw 
 
I've not had arthritis (yet!), but I have had knee problems in the past, from playing badminton at a fairly high (amateur) standard. I am also hypermobile.

The thing that works best for me is barbell squats (back squat, not front!). By the time I got up to about 100 kg, I was completely free of knee problems and absolutely rock-solid in my movement / jumping / lunging.

I've now been out of training for a while, because I'm naturally a lazy sod. I can feel my knees gradually getting worse again, and my movement isn't as good.

Fair warning: you need to get the technique right if you're going to squat heavy weights, and it may not be good for people with existing injuries -- especially lower back problems. And you always need to start low and increase the weight carefully.
 
I am following this thread with a lot of interest as I have knee trouble.
It doesn't stop me going underground, but puts the block on karate quite a lot. I can do aikido OK, as there are no 'stances' as such, but karate is different.
I have been tending to regard it as being part of my karma, down on karate training but getting  not too bad at aikido as more concentration on that one.

I am not a 'pill' man, no disrespect to anyone, and what I have been going is leg exercises lying on my back on the bed. Like cycling and stretching and bending, one then the other. I think that what works best for one person may not be for another, and vise verse.

For what its worth, I think my issues are definitely arthritic as it started in my right, moved to my left, and then moved back to the right. The core problem being using my right as a support leg although I can kick with it OK.

I recently did a bit of walk with Welsh Mines Society up to some iron mines nr Dinas Mawddwy. A bit of a climb up but I was out front and enjoying it. It was cold and I was finding grassy bits and doing katas to get warm while the others caught up. Going down was different, had to keep stopping for the knee to catch up.
:lol:
 
I am a carpet fitter of some 38years and still learning,about 29 years ago I was suffering with knee pain, sp I started taking cod liver oil capsules and haven't suffered any pain since. Considering I  spend 6/7 days a week on my knees. Buy to be fair I also wear knee pads caving
 
I will try that, cant do any harm
Paracetamol by the way, was what killed Bruce Lee. Explains my attitudes a bit.
 
Curcumin has undergone lots of clinical trials and studies and nobody has made a drug out of it yet, and that's because it doesn't work as anything other than a placebo. Here's a paper. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975

It's the same with magnetic bracelets, which, if they had any effect on your health, would lead to people dying and/or miraculously being cured by MRI machines and.. well any electric motor surely. They are very handy if you are repairing watches or doing something with small screws however!

Cod liver oil is somewhat proven however to have some benefits and so are knee exercises as well as physiotherapy if you can afford it etc - the NHS has like 737484938272 articles on this!

 
Old scientific saw: the plural of anecdote is not data.

Show me something published in a proper peer reviewed journal and I'll pay attention.
 
royfellows said:
I will try that, cant do any harm
Paracetamol by the way, was what killed Bruce Lee. Explains my attitudes a bit.

Amazing bloke, Bruce Lee. (I'm not really interested in martial arts but Lee's story is quite incredible; he'd have made an excellent caver!) However, glancing at Wikipaedia suggests his death was due to an allergic reaction to Meprobamate, rather than Paracetamol.

I agree with you about avoiding pills unless absolutely necessary.
 
2xw said:
Curcumin has undergone lots of clinical trials and studies and nobody has made a drug out of it yet, and that's because it doesn't work as anything other than a placebo. Here's a paper. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975

It's the same with magnetic bracelets, which, if they had any effect on your health, would lead to people dying and/or miraculously being cured by MRI machines and.. well any electric motor surely. They are very handy if you are repairing watches or doing something with small screws however!

Cod liver oil is somewhat proven however to have some benefits and so are knee exercises as well as physiotherapy if you can afford it etc - the NHS has like 737484938272 articles on this!
This. If you've severe osteoarthritis in knee or hip, the articular surfaces are irretrievably worn out and the only treatment is a prosthetic joint replacement. Physiotherapy helps strengthen the musculature round the affected joints and is essential to regain function after the op.
 
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