An effective treatment for knee pain

I've got a problem with my foot and the NHS podiatrist gave me some shoe inserts. They didn't help the foot problem  (which I keep telling people is due to a lump) but they did help my knees. You can get similar heel inserts from Boots for helping with Plantar Fasciitis.

I tried turmeric for my gout and arthritis but it didn't seem to help. One bloke I met on a course in the USA recommended turmeric and black cherry extract combined with large quantities of vitamin C (that old panacea) but it didn't work for me.

Now here's a weird thing. I went to my GP with carpal tunnel syndrome. I saw a locum GP who recommended using a magnetic copper bracelet. Of course I pooh poohed the idea to her face but she stuck to here guns. So I thought well they're only a tenner, I'll try it. Bugger me, it worked! Now that could be down to magnetic influences OR it could be due to the bracelet making me hold my wrist differently. Speaking as an engineer I know which option I believe.
 
https://www.arthritisresearchuk.org/arthritis-information/complementary-and-alternative-medicines/cam-report.aspx
Capsaicin (what makes chili hot) came out well in the lists - chilies are often thought to have good health benefits.
Is it perhaps more the copper than the magnets for the bracelets that may have an effect? (Bit of speculation there)
When I was hobbling about with my knee one of the staff at the railway station said cherry juice is good too and often used in Eastern Europe.  I'm guessing anti-inflammatory compounds are contained within.  Bought a load of cherries at the supermarket, not sure if they had any real effect or not as were combined with bucket loads of pain killers etc. at the time, but they were very nice (which may be a plus in itself).
 
crickleymal said:
Now here's a weird thing. I went to my GP with carpal tunnel syndrome. I saw a locum GP who recommended using a magnetic copper bracelet. Of course I pooh poohed the idea to her face but she stuck to here guns. So I thought well they're only a tenner, I'll try it. Bugger me, it worked! Now that could be down to magnetic influences OR it could be due to the bracelet making me hold my wrist differently. Speaking as an engineer I know which option I believe.

Or it could have resolved on its own, which it does in about a third of cases within about a year....
 
prahja said:
crickleymal said:
Now here's a weird thing. I went to my GP with carpal tunnel syndrome. I saw a locum GP who recommended using a magnetic copper bracelet. Of course I pooh poohed the idea to her face but she stuck to here guns. So I thought well they're only a tenner, I'll try it. Bugger me, it worked! Now that could be down to magnetic influences OR it could be due to the bracelet making me hold my wrist differently. Speaking as an engineer I know which option I believe.

Or it could have resolved on its own, which it does in about a third of cases within about a year....
Oh yes but this got better within a couple of weeks.
 
Years ago I began getting chest pains when I went out walking in winter, followed by left-arm pains - which naturally led to me to believe I may have a heart problem, as there was a history of early male deaths in one side of our family from undiagnosed heart weakness. This persisted for about a month, whereupon I booked myself in at the hospital for a battery of tests, including a nightmare treadmill, which steadily inclined as the session went on. Despite feeling shocking by the end of the tests, they concluded that my heart was fine, and that the main problem was that I was starting off too fast in the cold, and not giving my body chance to warm up, which led to my lungs not being able to deliver enough oxygen for the speed I was doing, creating the chest and arm pain - it felt like a really weird acid indigestion, but in the wrong place.

They suggested I just start walking more slowly, and gradually speed up. But the doctor also said that he thought many of my symptoms would just clear up more or less immediately. When I asked why, he said: "Because you're getting stressed about having a heart attack and pumping more cortisone out, making it feel worse. Now you know your heart is fine, you won't be as stressed, and it should stop." And he was right - it did.

I think sometimes the placebo effect - or perhaps better described as 'a greater holistic awareness of the overall condition, due to a change in circumstances' can help sort out some physical ailments, if it's not permanent damage, but misalignment, stress, strain or bad posture. Both physios I've seen over the last few years with a minor slipped disc complaint have recommended that I keep doing caving as much as I can, as they couldn't think of a better way of combining all the stretching exercises needed, and in an enjoyable situation. Certainly not a gym.
 
Going back to Turmeric/Curcumin, there certainly are peer reviewed papers in support of its medicinal use, primarily as an anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant. Peer review isn't flawless, and paper authors can be biased, but I don't think that it's worth disregarding straight away. Similarly, placebo is incredibly powerful, and has real physical effects on your body, not just on how you experience pain, so if a teaspoon of turmeric is what you need to get better then keep taking it!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29065496/
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00622/full
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-00812-6
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/fstr/23/2/23_275/_article
 
Found this interesting thread on Facebook and wanted to reply to royfellows regarding Karate. Knee injuries are not all that uncommon in Karate as we do a lot of pivoting on one leg that, if not done correctly, can put a lot of stress on the knee and cause injury. Focus on how you are moving the leg that stays on the ground during kicks and make sure you are pivoting enough to prevent undue twisting stress on the leg and knee. Maybe ask your sensei or fellow karateka to monitor your movement through a few kicks and see if some adjustments are needed.
 
Thanks for this, I know about it, its "karate nerd", he of the pink belts.

I dont think thats my problem though as my support leg is the left and I pivot using an aikido tencan which comes off the foot. This works for me as I can do a fairly fast Ushiro Geri (spin back kick) at 73. Its taught differently in Shotokan, but I like my own ways.

Bad knee is the right.
 
aricooperdavis said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29065496/

One author is from a company that specialises in providing evidence that dietary supplements work to companies that sell said dietary supplements. The other author is from a company that is located in Miami, but named so that it mimics a Canadian health department.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00622/full

I somewhat doubt David's ?60 for three month supply supplement has been incorporated into nanoparticles used lab grade reagents. I'm also suspicious about the P values in that paper.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-00812-6

This only one that has actual merit. Fair enough it is an established anti-inflammatory botanical. And more expensive and less effective than ibuprofen. Be interested to see its effects when compared to an actual medication rather than other derivatives of itself or nothing.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/fstr/23/2/23_275/_article

A paper where all the researchers work for House Foods Group, a major producer of curry. Come on!!! I'd read the paper but I can't access it through my institutional access

Nothing in any of these papers convinced me that turmeric or the selling of it as a miracle cure is anything but quakery. Ask your doctor for it and they'll tell you to take some nice cheap effective anti inflammatory and send you to a physio. It's a con!
 
Nothing wrong with the papers, but maybe they haven't found the secret of the various compounds yet?
Always liked this quote: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." (OK bit out of literal context perhaps), but there's lots of things out there we don't understand yet, but doesn't mean it doesn't work. Maybe what people, thought worked was a red herring and it's actually something else associated with it.
 
30 years as a GP led me to consider the placebo effect to be a very powerful weapon in my armoury. It was a problem as packaging became increasingly detailed regards labelling to prescribe something harmless but did not give the game away. Even a surgical procedure can have a placebo effect.  And even doctors respond.
 
Well spotted 2xw - I must admit that I barely looked at them before linking them! Having now actually read the paper you linked initially I'm inclined to agree, that there's not much evidence to support the development of curcumin as a synthesised drug. I wouldn't extend that to say that turmeric doesn't have beneficial effects on human health, and neither would the authors of that paper, but finding research that investigates turmeric rather than curcumin/curcuminoids appears to be quite difficult.

Slightly off topic perhaps, but whilst researching this I was interested to find that NICE guidelines for the prescription of topical rubifacients for musculoskeletal pain flipped completely from being recommended to being classed as "do not use" after a Cochrane review found very little evidence for their efficacy, and some significant negative side-effects. It's impressive how the pharmaceutical companies behind the various products were able to cobble together enough studies to get it approved!

Also, mrodoc, a placebo appears to work even if the patients know that it's a placebo.
 
mrodoc said:
30 years as a GP led me to consider the placebo effect to be a very powerful weapon in my armoury. It was a problem as packaging became increasingly detailed regards labelling to prescribe something harmless but did not give the game away. Even a surgical procedure can have a placebo effect.  And even doctors respond.

Friend of mine was prescribed a drug. He found its effect alarmingly good, so he cut it down to half a tablet. Mentioned this to GP, who scoffed "Oh no, you can't do that, it will not work at that does". And from that day on, it didn't.

Vet friend of mine says placebo effect works on animals too.

I also read an interesting paper on regression to the mean. If  you keep measuring something, eg no. of road accidents per year at different junctions, obviously one has to be "top". And the likelihood is that it won't be "top" next year  - somewhere else will be. If you apply traffic calming measures to the "top" junction, accidents will reduce, and you'll feel happy that your measures worked. But of course, there would have been a reduction anyway. Same with GP visits - people tend to go when they're feeling at their worst and were about to turn the corner and start getting better. So they ascribe their improvement in symptoms to the GP's intervention - even if the intervention did not go far beyond (as in a GP I had many years ago) looking soulfully at them and saying "you poor soul. Bless you"
 
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