Another Horrible Caving Image on Facebook

[The Old Ruminator]

Yes we have looked at some in the past. This is dreadful from a conservation point of view. Facebook images and videos are " all about me " now. Same with diving videos not shared on a proper research based platform but splodged over Facebook or U Tube. Todays news, tomorrows fish and chip wrapping ( Yea I know you cant do that now ). All a shame and I feel sure that we are seeing a lot less images here now .

 

[ChrisB]

I understand why you posted it the picture - but, thinking about the way AI and search engines work these days, I think perhaps we shouldn't post photos of bad practice, unless overlain with a red X and "don't do this". Even though the photo is already on Facebook, posting it elsewhere makes it more likely to be considered credible by a search engine, so AIs will think it's normal and include it in their made up 'articles' about caving.

Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean bad things won't happen...

 

[pwhole]

To be fair, they do look like the cleanest cavers in the world - I've not met any that look like that

 

[Leclused]

To be fair, they do look like the cleanest cavers in the world - I've not met any that look like that

They look clean but still it is a no go to step on the flowstone with boots. There is perhaps only one moment during exploration that allows somebody to walk on it, just to check out any leads and/or do survey measurements. And even then no boots allowed.

Also so see the thread about best practices: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.ph...k-out-a-white-passage-educational-post.31615/

This zone should be taped a few meters in front with small pegs and fine fencing wire.

 

[caving_fox]

They look clean but still it is a no go to step on the flowstone with boots. There is perhaps only one moment during exploration that allows somebody to walk on it, just to check out any leads and/or do survey measurements. And even then no boots allowed.

Also so see the thread about best practices: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.ph...k-out-a-white-passage-educational-post.31615/

This zone should be taped a few meters in front with small pegs and fine fencing wire.

You've never stood on any calcite anywhere? It's ubiquitous in caving, fills passages sometimes and would mean many many popular UK caves wouldn't be accessible. just 2 examples Craig a Fynnon main passageway is filled with gours and stal; P8 2nd pitch is almost entirely flowstone.

It's not a 'never' issue, it's an understanding of what you are sacrificing by being there. Calcite isn't in and of itself anything special. Absolutely don't go standing on it unnecessarily, certainly not 'off route' just to take a pretty picture. But there's no need to be to dramatic about it either.

 

[martinr]

Source

https://www.athens24.com/news/amorgos-expedition-maps-four-previously-unknown-caves-reveals-notable-geological-clues.html

A recent exploratory mission, “Amorgos Cave Expedition 2025” (Sep 27–Oct 1), has discovered and mapped four previously unknown vertical shafts—locally called “Vothones”—on the Cycladic island of Amorgos.



Amorgos expedition maps four previously unknown caves, reveals notable geological clues

The shafts range from 28 to 62 meters deep and display striking speleothems and varied geological formations. Amorgos already counts 25+ known caves, with indications of many more awaiting exploration.

Led by speleologist Prodromos Koulelis, the 17-member team (researchers and experienced amateurs from clubs in Kavala, Thessaloniki, Sidirokastro, Athens, the Peloponnese and Crete), with support from the Municipality of Amorgos, produced detailed maps and photographic records using modern survey methods and collected microclimate and hydrology data (including radon and CO₂). They also noted fossil remains, possibly of endemic fauna.

 

[snebbit]

'Vothones on the Cycladic island of Amorgos' sound like Doctor Who baddies

 

[Badlad]

I'm with cavingfox. To pretend we are so righteous that we never stand on calcite flows is pure hypocrisy. Mendip is full of caves where cavers regularly stand, walk, climb, crawl on calcite. I'm sure one of OR's many photographs from places such as Fairy or Frozen will show someone stood on calcite. Abroad, some of the most iconic and well publicised photographs from China, Mulu, Vietnam have cavers stood on top of stal. Google the Wedding Cake in Hang Son Dong for example. Without knowing the exact context for the photograph it is a bit much to describe it as "another horrible caving image". I'm all for protecting caves from damage but there does need to be a sensible balance so that we can explore them as well.

 

[Leclused]

You've never stood on any calcite anywhere? It's ubiquitous in caving, fills passages sometimes and would mean many many popular UK caves wouldn't be accessible. just 2 examples Craig a Fynnon main passageway is filled with gours and stal; P8 2nd pitch is almost entirely flowstone.

It's not a 'never' issue, it's an understanding of what you are sacrificing by being there. Calcite isn't in and of itself anything special. Absolutely don't go standing on it unnecessarily, certainly not 'off route' just to take a pretty picture. But there's no need to be to dramatic about it either.

I was talking about this photo and in this case there is no moment in time when it is justified to stand on the flowstone with boots (IMO).

 

[pwhole]

I was was winding up a bit, to be fair, and do try to observe good taping practice where possible, but as pointed out above, some passages are literally nothing but flowstone, and you have to walk on it. At least it's usually hard and shiny and can be cleaned. We had to tape off the path in the bottom of Longcliffe Mine, ironically because of mud, not flowstone. The mud is full of miners' bootprints and fingerprints, buddling evidence and a rotted wooden wagon, far more fragile than calcite, and I have shouted at people occasionally for stepping over the tape, so I do understand the predicament

 

[mrodoc]

I am all for a happy medium but occasionally it is a case of just taking a little care when exploring. There's accidental damage and stupid damage. Two examples of sites where damage occurred between visits. Could cite many more. One shows a cascade as found in 1967. We tried jetwashing what is now a muddy slope a year or two ago but it was mostly ingrained. It wasn't going to go anywhere. The other is the shark's teeth in Otter Hole - again unrecognisable on a visit less than 10 years later as cavers couldn't be arsed to dug down going through so those curtains now look like the stal slope below them.

 

[Caver Keith]

 

[The Old Ruminator]

What you do unseen and what you blatently show in a photograph are two differant things. Yes I have erred. I posted a photo of the Elephants Trunk in Withyhill and my models arm was over the tape. The tape had recently been moved. I was taken off the FCQ leaders list for two years and made amends by slogging on my own all day replacing the higher Balch entrance tube.

 

[bagpuss]

What you do unseen and what you blatently show in a photograph are two differant things. Yes I have erred. I posted a photo of the Elephants Trunk in Withyhill and my models arm was over the tape. The tape had recently been moved. I was taken off the FCQ leaders list for two years and made amends by slogging on my own all day replacing the higher Balch entrance tube.

I'm not sure how how widely this photo was shared, but I think if a photo is going to be shared more widely its worth thinking about making sure it shows good practice, otherwise anyone new to caving that sees it might think its okay to walk over stuff or touch things.

 

[mikem]

Well, martinr's link is to a national website...