Bad Air Reported in WICC

[DCA]

DCA have received a report of bad air being encountered in WICC. For details please see our new page for bad air reports on the website:
https://thedca.org.uk/safety/bad-air-reports/

 

[LarryFatcat]

so yesterday (the date of the reportt) the bad air was so serious that the key holder chose not to metion it to anyone on the trip - up to 7 of the 12 at one time where donning gear chatting and waiting at the supposed site of the foul air while two panted up the shaft none noticed anything.

 

[Pete K]

The keyholder was told about it by the members of your club who experienced it (no idea if it was during or after the trip) and passed the report on to DCA. A good reminder that anyone who thinks they are experiencing signs of bad air should share that info with all who are present immediately.

Carbon Dioxide in Caves

Have you experienced symptoms of exposure to CO2, H2S or CO underground in our area? If so let DCA know! Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a colourless, odourless gas, normally present in the air we breath…

thedca.org.uk

 

[Nodrog]

so yesterday (the date of the reportt) the bad air was so O serious that the key holder chose not to metion it to anyone on the trip - up to 7 of the 12 at one time where donning gear chatting and waiting at the supposed site of the foul air while two panted up the shaft none noticed anything.

Hi Larry, Pete,
As key holder for the trip I can explain the facts of this report of bad air.
As a key holder we had arranged for two groups of four to visit beyond the gate. I entered with the first group of four. Neither myself or any of the party of four I was with, experienced any problem. As we set off for the cave beyond the gate, other members of the club were following down the entrance shaft.... the plan was for them to visit the non gated bits of WICC before we swapped four of them with the first group of four.
All went to plan, after the first team of four had had their tour beyond the gate, we returned to the gate and the two teams swapped over. At some point during the visit of the second group, it casually came out in conversation that two of them had experienced shortness of breath, increased heart rate whilst initially descending the entrance shaft.
At that point, they seemed fine and were no longer having any problem. It was already too late to alert the rest of the team. We did discuss not all congregating at the bottom of the shaft as this might cause symptoms to reoccur. At this time other members were already ascending the entrance shaft.

There was no big drama but after the trip I thought it might be worth mentioning it to DCA who were up to recently monitoring WICC and other sites, with known reports of bad air. ( Usually down to CO2 displacing O2).
It seems the area the two experienced symptoms was towards the bottom of the entrance shaft. By the time I was informed there didn't seem much point making a big deal of it as the two seemed ok and no longer experiencing any problem. But I stand by my decision to pass it on as information to the wider caving community. Clearly the WICC bad air problem has not gone away and groups visiting need to be aware this is the case, though most cavers will not experience problems.
I got the impression all who visited the section beyond the gate enjoyed the trip...they posted some great photos on the PCC site.

 

[ChrisJC]

Anyone been down with a gas monitor?

Chris.

 

[pwhole]

WICC is known for being high in CO2, though it varies - but I believe levels of 2% are quite common. Last time I was there a couple of years ago, it was worse further along the passages, but not really an issue if you didn't run about. It was a very windy day up top, and the shaft itself was clear as a bell as a result. Alan Brentnall regularly tested the air down there, and this trip report on the TSG website from 2014 goes into some detail on the 'pooling' issue:

https://tsgcaving.co.uk/content/Trip-Reports/water-icicle-close-cavern-alan-brentnall

 

[LarryFatcat]

The keyholder was told about it by the members of your club who experienced it (no idea if it was during or after the trip) and passed the report on to DCA. A good reminder that anyone who thinks they are experiencing signs of bad air should share that info with all who are present immediately.

Carbon Dioxide in Caves

Have you experienced symptoms of exposure to CO2, H2S or CO underground in our area? If so let DCA know! Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a colourless, odourless gas, normally present in the air we breath…

thedca.org.uk

the power of suggestion is strong but any evidence of a measurable occurrence is totally lacking

 

[Wayland Smith]

the power of suggestion is strong but any evidence of a measurable occurrence is totally lacking

So bad air only exists if you measure it on a gas monitor?

 

[LarryFatcat]

So bad air only exists if you measure it on a gas monitor?

ultimately, yes

 

[andrewmcleod]

ultimately, yes

so if you don't measure it, you won't suffer the effects?

 

[LarryFatcat]

Even mild hypercapnia has up to six symptoms. One very mild symptom, reported by inexperienced cavers after suggestion , is not measurable evidence of high CO2 and has a multitude of alternative causes. A reading taken with a calibrated gas monitor is very strong evidence that its results are correct.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

Even mild hypercapnia has up to six symptoms. One very mild symptom, reported by inexperienced cavers after suggestion , is not measurable evidence of high CO2 and has a multitude of alternative causes. A reading taken with a calibrated gas monitor is very strong evidence that its results are correct.

when I experienced high CO2 in a cave it was very obvious, even though the only symptom I experienced was breathlessness. It is easy to rule 'alternative causes' out with some common sense

 

[LarryFatcat]

lol, if only all cavers, all the time had common sense

 

[Tseralo]

I'd have thought it was common sense not to slag them off the person that has taken time out of their weekend to run a trip for you. But then I also thought it was common sense to not as a guest bring young kids to someone's hut without warning and then try and stick them in the member's bunk room while moving members' kit off the bunks.

Alas, perhaps it's not.

 

[tomferry]

Sounds an interesting place to take the 5x I think . Some times it’s possible with lots of study and multiple trips, to be able to tell the gas you will encounter by the weather outside, takes a hell of a lot of work but normally you find a pattern .

 

[paul]

There is a history of high CO2 levels in WICC both measured with meters and assumed due to felt symptoms (there being a log book for some years at the bottom of the entrance shaft). Over the years I believe there has been no correspondence between weather conditions, presence of livestock, etc. and the levels of CO2.