Babyhagrid
Well-known member
Does anyone know anything about this interesting bolt above an entrance to rowten cave. Just to the left of the turbary road
Bolt outside of rowten cave
- Thread starter Babyhagrid
- Start date
Does anyone know anything about this interesting bolt above an entrance to rowten cave. Just to the left of the turbary road
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Reminded me of the anchors at Jean Pot entrance, but that was a different resin (this looks like it might be a cheap epoxy possibly?).
Perhaps whoever installed this anchor didn't realise the resin had to go _in_ the hole, not just all over the anchor...
Perhaps whoever installed this anchor didn't realise the resin had to go _in_ the hole, not just all over the anchor...
s_allshorn
Active member
I spent some time a while ago with ian walker and another installer removing the decommissioned bca anchors in the gully route in rowten pot. We also removed an array of other anchors. Some looked similar to this, it took about a quarter turn with a large spanner and the whole thing came out. This looks like it was under moss. I guess it was by the hole down to rowten caves. We didn’t look at it and I expect this may have been there for some time. The climb out is slippery and understandable that someone felt it needs protection. Personally I’d just remove it.
s_allshorn
Active member
Just been back and looked at those I removed they seem to be standard m10 bolts about 50mm long araldited in.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Could a 12mm Petzl Coeur be installed "recycling" the existing 10mm hole, as an unofficial/non CNCC anchor if it's protecting a slippery descent? It might prevent someone adding their replacement using araldite, pritt stick etc and random bolts.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I would suggest that, if the CNCC deemed it worthy of resin installations, that it would be better to install a 12mm IC anchor in the existing hole.
And then a second anchor to back it up if there are no suitable naturals. Reliance on single resin anchors would set an incredibly bad precedent, and actually a worse one *in some ways* than single spits for example because people rigging on spits _generally_ know what they are doing and will back them up to some natural somewhere, or at least know what they are doing is dumb, whereas people using resin anchors often don't have the experience and have heard endless 'resin anchors are bombproof' which, while mostly true, isn't necessarily the point).
Throughbolts are a pain because they loosen and need tightening, people can steal the hangers, and they come in a variety of sizes (I don't have an adjustable caving spanner). Nobody should be sticking throughbolts in Yorkshire caves unless they are digging/bolt climbing etc. and have adequately justified it (not justified it to anyone in particular, just to cavers and caving).
If it isn't a worthy location, just unscrew it and stick a bit of mud in the hole and move on...
And then a second anchor to back it up if there are no suitable naturals. Reliance on single resin anchors would set an incredibly bad precedent, and actually a worse one *in some ways* than single spits for example because people rigging on spits _generally_ know what they are doing and will back them up to some natural somewhere, or at least know what they are doing is dumb, whereas people using resin anchors often don't have the experience and have heard endless 'resin anchors are bombproof' which, while mostly true, isn't necessarily the point).
Throughbolts are a pain because they loosen and need tightening, people can steal the hangers, and they come in a variety of sizes (I don't have an adjustable caving spanner). Nobody should be sticking throughbolts in Yorkshire caves unless they are digging/bolt climbing etc. and have adequately justified it (not justified it to anyone in particular, just to cavers and caving).
If it isn't a worthy location, just unscrew it and stick a bit of mud in the hole and move on...
See Sam’s post above: “it took about a quarter turn with a large spanner and the whole thing came out” (for similar looking anchors nearby)
I have no actual numbers.
This video is of the extractor pulling one out. It was “effortless” (you can tell from the sound and speed). Pulling out “loose” resin anchors is a different magnitude altogether.
One of the big questions with these anchors is that these were placed near perfectly good resin anchors, not sure about the other locations reported.
For those who haven't seen the extractor, the sound you can hear is the ratchet spanner being returned for another turn, and the gap between returns indicates how little effort was required to turn it.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Since all the glue is coming out attached to the anchor, I suspect hole cleaning was poor or non-existent. A threaded bolt glued into a hole with good epoxy resin _could_ give an OK strength if:
a) there is sufficient glue bond (i.e. enough glue for it to heat and set properly and not just a smear of glue on a bolt that barely fits)
b) the hole is properly cleaned
c) the anchor is 'long' enough
(all of the above to be determined by testing or manufacturer specifications e.g. resin manufacturers will give strengths for lengths of threaded rod in certain size holes etc.)
But I suspect the installer had no idea what they were doing...
a) there is sufficient glue bond (i.e. enough glue for it to heat and set properly and not just a smear of glue on a bolt that barely fits)
b) the hole is properly cleaned
c) the anchor is 'long' enough
(all of the above to be determined by testing or manufacturer specifications e.g. resin manufacturers will give strengths for lengths of threaded rod in certain size holes etc.)
But I suspect the installer had no idea what they were doing...
I think making these kind of statements is really unhelpful. Surely you do not want to encourage random installations.
The problem would be that nobody except the installer would know what it was. It should be possible for a caver to assess whether any bolt is safe to use, which means they should be able to recognise the type. While we don't want cave police, we should encourage the culture that, with the exception of exploration bolts, if anyone thinks a bolt is necessary they should ask their Regional Caving Council to consider installing one.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Very true - I'm not suggesting that people _should_ be installing random threaded rods (or any other kind of anchors) in UK caves!
Just that in theory it _could_ have been done to a decent standard, and wasn't, so given the ease of extraction it likely didn't fail just because what they installed was inherently doomed to fail (except for gluing in the throughbolt which was just dumb) but also because they were incompetent
So yes, since I didn't state it explicitly: (almost) nobody should be sticking anchors in UK caves (exceptions being regional council installers and genuine exploration). And certainly not random self-designed anchor installations.
or as I said about 6 posts before my last one: "Nobody should be sticking throughbolts in Yorkshire caves unless they are digging/bolt climbing etc. and have adequately justified it (not justified it to anyone in particular, just to cavers and caving)"
