alanw
Well-known member
I know that now. I hope that this has raised awareness amongst cavers for the future. However random Three Peaks walkers won't know.
Calling cave rescue via 999 ?
- Thread starter Ian P
- Start date
I know that now. I hope that this has raised awareness amongst cavers for the future. However random Three Peaks walkers won't know.
mrodoc
Well-known member
You would think by now there would be a joined up service. I used to have issues when on call as a GP as we live on the borders of three counties. If I was in a remote patch of the practice in the middle of the night I wouldn't have a clue where the border was but I was always asked and told ambulance control to sort it out.
Wouldn't make any difference as the operator almost certainly isn't in your local area - there are probably around 100 caving calls a year compared to (next bit from ross-shire journal):
"Six BT call centres handle all the UK's 999 calls in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, passing calls to the relevant emergency service.
The number of 999 calls handled by BT has increased significantly in recent years, jumping from around 25 million calls a year in 2000, to close to 33 million calls in 2018. BT’s 999 call centres in Scotland handled around 35 per cent (11.4m) of these calls."
It needs to be built into the system.
"Six BT call centres handle all the UK's 999 calls in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, passing calls to the relevant emergency service.
The number of 999 calls handled by BT has increased significantly in recent years, jumping from around 25 million calls a year in 2000, to close to 33 million calls in 2018. BT’s 999 call centres in Scotland handled around 35 per cent (11.4m) of these calls."
It needs to be built into the system.
afraidofthedank
Member
Having done this in the past, I was told they had to take all the incident details then contact the local force to get permission to pass it over to N Yorks. It was about 15 mins before they passed me over to N Yorks, then naturally I had to repeat everything…all in about 30 mins probably before CRO got the call I reckon? I think she may have thought I was pulling her leg when I started talking about “brown & smelly passage”!
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I think CRO also get tasked directly by the ambulance service, but you should continue to phone 999, ask for the police (North Yorkshire Police in the case of CRO) and then ask for cave/mountain rescue.
While CRO (and other teams) don't get that many caving callouts, which can lead to these processes getting a bit rusty, CRO have done nearly 100 incidents last year (mostly mountain rescue) and CRO's MR patch is partly in Lancashire so it's hopefully unusual that you had difficulty getting them to get through to CRO (although I guess most of the MR incidents are probably not in Lancashire, and I don't really know how it all works behind the scenes). In your case it was a mountain rescue incident rather than a cave rescue incident.
You can sometimes have problems when you have the signal to make the 999 call on another network but not the signal to receive the phone call from the controller phoning you back, or a Phonefind message to locate you.
While CRO (and other teams) don't get that many caving callouts, which can lead to these processes getting a bit rusty, CRO have done nearly 100 incidents last year (mostly mountain rescue) and CRO's MR patch is partly in Lancashire so it's hopefully unusual that you had difficulty getting them to get through to CRO (although I guess most of the MR incidents are probably not in Lancashire, and I don't really know how it all works behind the scenes). In your case it was a mountain rescue incident rather than a cave rescue incident.
You can sometimes have problems when you have the signal to make the 999 call on another network but not the signal to receive the phone call from the controller phoning you back, or a Phonefind message to locate you.
aricooperdavis
Moderator
In DevCRO we do a fair bit of joint training with other services, be that MREW, HART, the Police, or Fire and Rescue. The idea being that if one of them is mistakenly called out first by a call handler then that service is more likely to know that we exist and are better equipped to operate underground than they are.
Cosmo Smallpiece
Member
To answer the OP's original question. Calling 999 or 101 will take you through to your local Police Service. If you're calling for a third party in another Force area then that's creating an extra link in the chain of communication.
A better option for a concern of a lack of contact from an overdue party might be to Google the non-emergency number for the appropriate Force that covers the cave/mine.
If you had the ability to contact cave rescue in the local area I don't see an issue with calling them directly? I don't know how the cave rescue call-out process works or what risk the Police insurance covers, but phoning around for availability could be done before any risks are taken?
The only time I contacted Mountain Rescue they were sat in the cottage by the public car park. There seemed little risk in them say, checking the car park for the vehicle of an overdue climber?
A better option for a concern of a lack of contact from an overdue party might be to Google the non-emergency number for the appropriate Force that covers the cave/mine.
If you had the ability to contact cave rescue in the local area I don't see an issue with calling them directly? I don't know how the cave rescue call-out process works or what risk the Police insurance covers, but phoning around for availability could be done before any risks are taken?
The only time I contacted Mountain Rescue they were sat in the cottage by the public car park. There seemed little risk in them say, checking the car park for the vehicle of an overdue climber?
Pete K
Well-known member
If a call comes in directly to a team member then of course that gets dealt with if they are able, but that it not the way the system is designed to work. There will be rare situations like the one described above that might benefit from a bit of calling around after the 999 call has been made to speed things up, but in almost all cases the call is routed correctly. Remember that most call handlers will never have taken a CR or MR call, so they will just be following their stipulated pathway on their system. When a call comes through to a member of a rescue team directly from a caver, they may not be a controller or able to appropriately deal with it because they are at work, out drinking, shopping in the supermarket, or in a doctors appointment etc.... Even if they can, they still need to contact their deploying authority (usually the police) to get an incident number (to activate the insurance cover etc..). There is a reason teams don't list their direct contact details, 999 is the route to go in 99% of situations.
To reiterate the correct mechanism for calling cave rescue as stated by BCRC:
Call 999 and ask for Police, then cave rescue.
Tell the police where the incident is and what team you need and that can speed things up. The police will contact the duty controller of the rescue team who can then initiate the team callout or put the team on standby pending further details being obtained or checking parking areas etc..
As a DerbyshireCRO Controller, I can call out or put the whole team on standby with one text message to the SARCALL system, so there is no need to ring around everyone to check availability (like in the earlier days of cave rescue). Within moments I'll be able to see who has replied as available/attending or not via a website login on my phone or PC. I'm not sure if every team uses SARCALL, but for those that do it is very fast and efficient.
I've had callouts rung through to me personally and that is fine as that is what the individual decided to do to get the help needed in the fastest way they thought they could. If that happens again in future then it'll be sorted like it always has been, but 999 is the correct route to go in most situations where you know you need to call out the team.
999 is still the correct method of contacting cave rescue.
I have done this for overdue cavers and not just for underground incidents.
It was substantially easier to do when in the same locality as the overdue cavers though.
Transferring to a different police force to contact CRO is not always easy though... even if you request and specify the force you need. (I was told to try directory enquiries...) The IPCC were involved in that specific case. Not because I requested it but because that is the police procedure for when a person dies following a 999 call. They did issue an apology and said retraining would occur. It sounds like there are still issues years on though from the above comments. The delay that occurred in no way contributed to his death and at no point did I think that it had. A delay however could be crucial in another situation though.
I agree with mrodoc that it seems substantially easier to transfer forces for ambulance services. I have had to do that as a doctor too.
It was however very helpful to have a number of people (who I knew would be summoned by CRO in this case) in my phone to ring and notify them too after going via 999.
I have done this for overdue cavers and not just for underground incidents.
It was substantially easier to do when in the same locality as the overdue cavers though.
Transferring to a different police force to contact CRO is not always easy though... even if you request and specify the force you need. (I was told to try directory enquiries...) The IPCC were involved in that specific case. Not because I requested it but because that is the police procedure for when a person dies following a 999 call. They did issue an apology and said retraining would occur. It sounds like there are still issues years on though from the above comments. The delay that occurred in no way contributed to his death and at no point did I think that it had. A delay however could be crucial in another situation though.
I agree with mrodoc that it seems substantially easier to transfer forces for ambulance services. I have had to do that as a doctor too.
It was however very helpful to have a number of people (who I knew would be summoned by CRO in this case) in my phone to ring and notify them too after going via 999.
Thanks for the responses and informative discussion.
My takeaway from this (and a discussion with someone who knows the “system” ) is that you need to get through to the Police control centre in the County of the Rescue team you want.
This can be either via 999 or 101 and requesting the relevant Police Force.
After that it’s plain sailing 😃
My takeaway from this (and a discussion with someone who knows the “system” ) is that you need to get through to the Police control centre in the County of the Rescue team you want.
This can be either via 999 or 101 and requesting the relevant Police Force.
After that it’s plain sailing 😃
Stuart France
Active member
Here in Wales we have two Newports. The big city one near Cardiff, belongs to Gwent Police, and the little village one in Pembrokeshire, belongs to Dyfed-Powys police. According to Google there are 16 Newports in the UK. Even Yorkshire has got one. Yep, so you've guessed, someone called 999 in Wales and the response went to the other Newport because 999 is a joined-up-thinking-centrally-handled service, I think. It's binary though: they have a choice of two (or maybe more) so Murphy's Law says they will pick the wrong Newport at least some of the time. You really can't make up stuff like this. Imagine trying to undo that situation having involved two different counties and two police forces.
As to What Three Words, it is better than nothing if nothing else is available, but it needs to be deprecated for professional use. It's a commercial product aiming to build a marketplace with the kind of people who don't read maps, seem to have no idea what a postcode is, let alone an OS gridref or lat-long.
As to What Three Words, it is better than nothing if nothing else is available, but it needs to be deprecated for professional use. It's a commercial product aiming to build a marketplace with the kind of people who don't read maps, seem to have no idea what a postcode is, let alone an OS gridref or lat-long.
On the other hand, Alderley Edge changed it's name to avoid any confusion:
"As the railway network expanded and travel became easier, the railway company did not want its station called Chorley any more because of the possible confusion with Chorley in Lancashire. So, in 1880 they renamed it Alderley Edge against much opposition, taking the old name for the village and the name of the sandstone escarpment already known as The Edge."
"As the railway network expanded and travel became easier, the railway company did not want its station called Chorley any more because of the possible confusion with Chorley in Lancashire. So, in 1880 they renamed it Alderley Edge against much opposition, taking the old name for the village and the name of the sandstone escarpment already known as The Edge."
Hi Alan, do you know which map that is please? that looks worth a look!
alanw
Well-known member
There are a load of old and new maps available at the National Library of Scotland web site. It's a veritable treasure trove: I spend a lot of time there.
Have a play with the selectors for "category" and "map series". Of particular interest, in side by side views, as well as the old OS maps are the two aerial photographs (though the Bing subscription is often used up at the end of a day) and the LIDAR scans.
If you can't see the selectors, click on the "stack of paper" icons in the bottom corners.
Not all areas have a LIDAR survey, but here, for instance, is Pen-y-Ghent above Brackenbottom.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
As featured on TV in the old Ready Brek advert (which I think AndyS flagged up on here somewhere in the past):
It doesn't look a right lot different today. There was indeed a junction; this is where the former mineral line branched off towards Ingleton. When driving from Clapham towards Bentham there's a notable wiggle in the road immediately past the turn off for the NPC's fine hostel at Greenclose. That's where the mineral line and road crossed.
Eaglescliffe railway station was orginally called Preston station after the near by hall - but it was changed to avoid confusion. It the new name was supposed to be after the next parish - Egglescliffe. But it was spelt wrong and Eaglescliffe was born.
Now a much bigger sprawl than the village of Egglescliffe
