Cave Access Ltd

[royfellows]

With absolutely no hope of the agreement regarding access to mines on Welsh Government land being reinstated, the directors of CAL have decided to wind the company up.

The original groundwork was done by the late Elsie Little and then taken up by Stewart France who pushed it forward. I well remember a meeting we had on the legalities etc out in the open on a picnic table at the Halfway Inn at Pisgah near Aberystwyth. It was at the end of a Ceredigion Mines Forum and we had all had to vacate, no where else to go.

I have just tendered my own resignation with something of a heavy heart. I have to say that it has been a pleasure and an honour to serve alongside my fellow directors Stuart France and Dave Tyson.

For the avoidance of any doubt, access to Upper Dinas Silica mine in South Wales remains unaffected, its never been anything at all to do with CAL. Although WG owned land, WG own only the soil, "all mines and minerals" belong to my company Natural Amenities Ltd

 

[Cantclimbtom]

A huge thanks Roy, to you and all the other directors for what you did.

 

[Brains]

Sorry to hear that it has come to this. Thanks for all efforts from you and the team.
Moving forward, without CAL, I presume site monitoring, maintenance and security will fall completely on the land owners and agents. Access will be officially denied? A sad day for our pastimes. As an historical record, will any documents, plans and surveys be archived for future reference, or lost in the mists of time?

 

[royfellows]

Absolutely.
There will be no quid quo pro with NRW re anything undergound they need to know about, the land of midnight trips arises like a phoenix from the ashes, and reading tealeaves, there will be the inevitable confrontation at some point.
All very sad.

 

[JoshW]

Time to start promoting responsible trespass?

 

[shotlighter]

So does this include Cwmystwyth too?

 

[royfellows]

So does this include Cwmystwyth too?

You serious?
I own Cwmystwyth through Cambrian Mines Trust

 

[Stuart France]

I am sorry to say that NRW have become so difficult to deal with and a threat to caving and underground exploration generally that not only CAL but also Caving Wales has decided to stop routine contact with NRW until there is clear evidence of a sea change to being constructive.

NRW are a prosecuting authority (i.e. like the police) which seems, to me at least, on a mission. There is no point in keeping CAL going as a dormant company just in case relations improve any time soon.

How can employees in any enforcement-minded body meet their job performance indicators except by confliction? In the old days of CCW there was very little or no confliction, and their staff went out of their way to cultivate mutually beneficial relations and harmony and understanding.

That absolutely no longer applies and people on our side need to conduct themselves accordingly and with care.

 

[Dave Tyson]

Sorry to hear that it has come to this. Thanks for all efforts from you and the team.
Moving forward, without CAL, I presume site monitoring, maintenance and security will fall completely on the land owners and agents. Access will be officially denied? A sad day for our pastimes. As an historical record, will any documents, plans and surveys be archived for future reference, or lost in the mists of time?

The documents on the cave access website could be put on Buddle Pit or UCET websites. They were mainly parking and risk assessments together with some notes on individual mines. I still get the occasional emails from people asking for codes for Rhiwbach or asking about other CAL sites despite notices here and on the Cave Access website.

Dave

 

[RobinGriffiths]

We (on behalf of Buddlepit) can put anything you think should remain public up. Just give us a list of documents and any disclaimer/note of current context to display with each item.

 

[Dave Tyson]

We (on behalf of Buddlepit) can put anything you think should remain public up. Just give us a list of documents and any disclaimer/note of current context to display with each item.

Thanks Robin,

I'll PM you in a few days.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[ttxela2]

Sad times indeed but many thanks to all involved with CAL for their excellent work which I certainly benefited from as I know did many others.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Just a quick note — all the CAL documents (plus a short note on the historical agreement context) are now up on Buddlepit. They’re behind a login, so you’ll need to register to view them. That’s only to keep scrapers and spiders from eating up bandwidth.

https://buddlepit.co.uk/mine-explorer/Library/Library.html?doc=20970

 

[FRASER - UKME]

With absolutely no hope of the agreement regarding access to mines on Welsh Government land being reinstated, the directors of CAL have decided to wind the company up.

The original groundwork was done by the late Elsie Little and then taken up by Stewart France who pushed it forward. I well remember a meeting we had on the legalities etc out in the open on a picnic table at the Halfway Inn at Pisgah near Aberystwyth. It was at the end of a Ceredigion Mines Forum and we had all had to vacate, no where else to go.

I have just tendered my own resignation with something of a heavy heart. I have to say that it has been a pleasure and an honour to serve alongside my fellow directors Stuart France and Dave Tyson.

For the avoidance of any doubt, access to Upper Dinas Silica mine in South Wales remains unaffected, its never been anything at all to do with CAL. Although WG owned land, WG own only the soil, "all mines and minerals" belong to my company Natural Amenities Ltd

Such a shame this has happened and will only push "propper explorers" to access them without permission. Why are some so short sighted. Looks like my list of need to visit soon has been re-ordered!

 

[vanoord]

NRW are a prosecuting authority (i.e. like the police) which seems, to me at least, on a mission. There is no point in keeping CAL going as a dormant company just in case relations improve any time soon.

NRW has become a body that partially funds itself by fining people and over-charging for unnecessary licenses.

I've had four investigations in the last five years, none of which were justified or went anywhere other than causing a load of hassle. Yet the last time we contacted them with a genuine issue (pollution that could affect an SAC), they rang back within the hour to say they weren't interested.

Unfortunately, NRW has become increasing keen on 'enforcement' work and more distanced from the job that CCW (and the Nature Conservancy Council Wales) did before. I know a couple of ex-NCCW/CCW people and they've very critical of the current way it works.

Thank you, Stuart, Roy, Dave and the other directors of CAL for all you did.

 

[Stuart France]

... the last time we contacted them with a genuine issue (pollution that could affect an SAC), they [NRW] rang back within the hour to say they weren't interested.

NRW seems to me selective in whom or what it targets or ignores.

Try typing "Fish Legal Padarn Lake Judicial Reviews" into Google and read its AI Review for the insight.

In our increasingly litigious and conflicted world, I feel that caving too could do with an equivalent "Cave Legal" organisation.