Cave in Conwy?

[Joe Duxbury]

I was looking at old maps of N Wales, and came across 'Pant-yr-ogof' on Mynydd-y-Gaer in Conwy. The map was the 1888-1915 OS map, and the grid ref is SH 97262 71780. Is this actually a cave? It lies inside 'Gaer', an old hill fort.

 

[Ian Adams]

I am going to offer one of those “useless” answers – sorry…

The Grid Ref you have provided is Llannefydd and was part of my old stomping ground when I was walking everywhere. I don’t recall seeing a cave there but, there again, I wasn’t looking for one either.

“Pant yr Ogof” doesn’t appear on my O/S map which wouldn’t be a surprise if it isn’t there anymore. The literal translation of the name is “Hollow Cave” or, you would know it better as “grotto”. It’s quite possible it was nothing more than that and has fallen victim to nature.

Or, perhaps, it IS there. Nearby are some well-documented caves, one of which has the prestige of being named the cave with the oldest human tooth find (or something like that).

It’s the sort of mystery that would have me out of the door in a jiffy. Sadly, I am no longer able to manage it, so I can’t go and have a look for you (sorry).

I did say it was going to be one of those “useless” answers …



Ian

 

[mikem]

Can't see anything on the "satellite" image:

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I am going to offer one of those “useless” answers – sorry…

The Grid Ref you have provided is Llannefydd and was part of my old stomping ground when I was walking everywhere. I don’t recall seeing a cave there but, there again, I wasn’t looking for one either.

“Pant yr Ogof” doesn’t appear on my O/S map which wouldn’t be a surprise if it isn’t there anymore. The literal translation of the name is “Hollow Cave” or, you would know it better as “grotto”. It’s quite possible it was nothing more than that and has fallen victim to nature.

Or, perhaps, it IS there. Nearby are some well-documented caves, one of which has the prestige of being named the cave with the oldest human tooth find (or something like that).

It’s the sort of mystery that would have me out of the door in a jiffy. Sadly, I am no longer able to manage it, so I can’t go and have a look for you (sorry).

I did say it was going to be one of those “useless” answers …



Ian

Could pant yr ogof also be translated (if used a bit romantically/imaginatively) as a rock shelter?

 

[RobinGriffiths]

I'm guessing it's the name of a farmstead that used to exist at the location. There's clearly traces of a dwelling on the satellite map, and the old Os map seems to show three enclosures associated with it. That, however does not get any nearer to the source of the name.

The death notice here of 21 year old Ellen Roberts seems very likely to refer to the same place.

Papurau Newydd Cymru

papuraunewydd.llyfrgell.cymru

 

[mikem]

"December 24 (1878), aged 21 years, Ellen, daughter of Mr Richard Roberts, Pant yr ogof. She was buried the following Friday."

That newspaper report and this thread are the only things that come up on Google for that place name. Although, quite possibly the same as first 2 records on here (if anyone has access to ancestry - can then find 1881 listing for same family):

Ellen Roberts - Ancestry.com

 

[mikem]

From the Denbighshire Free Press July 1906 (Ty Newydd is still to the north):
"Lot 4.—All that Desirable Holding, called MYNYDD-Y-GAER, in the occupation of Mr. William Jones, and containing 37a. Or. 24p. (or thereabouts), with extensive Out-buildings, all nearly new... Lot 7.—All that Tenement known as TY NEWYDD, MYNYDD-Y-GAER, containing 8a. 2r. 27p. (or thereabouts) in the occupation of Mr. John Wynne." [1 acre = 4 roods and 1 rood = 40 perches]

Papurau Newydd Cymru

papuraunewydd.llyfrgell.cymru

 

[Lankyman]

I was looking at old maps of N Wales, and came across 'Pant-yr-ogof' on Mynydd-y-Gaer in Conwy. The map was the 1888-1915 OS map, and the grid ref is SH 97262 71780. Is this actually a cave? It lies inside 'Gaer', an old hill fort.

I know Llandudno and the Ormes aren't far off but is the rock there limestone (not that that's a necessity for a cave)?

 

[alanw]

I know Llandudno and the Ormes aren't far off but is the rock there limestone (not that that's a necessity for a cave)?

Go to https://geologyviewer.bgs.ac.uk/ and search for "plas-uchaf" and select the reservoir result. The hill fort is just NE of that.

Bedrock geology
Elwy Formation - Mudstone, siltstone and sandstone. Sedimentary bedrock formed between 427.4 and 423.6 million years ago during the Silurian period.

 

[Ian Adams]

Could pant yr ogof also be translated (if used a bit romantically/imaginatively) as a rock shelter?

Yes

 

[mikem]

10 years before the death of Ellen, pant yr ogof (mouth of the cave?) was used as a nom de plume, by someone writing letters in Welsh (presumably of a nationalist nature) in those same papers

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Google Maps and https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/apu-welsh-government-aerial-photography/view#/ do seem to show a couple of small quarries, pesumably in sandstone members of the Elwy Fomation - just about 20m NE of the building. If quarries for original fort, may have been called romatically 'ogof'. Or maybe one of the sandstone beds has been undercut by removal of shales.

 

[Stuart France]

Pant is indeed a hollow, but it often associated with a stream too, as seen on maps. There are several villages called Pant, including the one on the Shrops/Powys border tracking the A483 contour which clearly isn't a hollow. The word for mouth literally in Welsh is ceg (also geg, cheg etc). Another word used for mouth but in a figurative way is porth (gate). As in Porth-yr-Ogof, clearly meaning the mouth of the cave rather than the gate to the cave, or Porth the town at the start of the Rhondda valley. Clwyd, giat, iet, llidiart, are all "gate" as well.

You need to use imagination and not to be pedantic with Welsh, and also be aware of localisations. A North Wales boy is hogyn, but in South Wales he's bachgen, and elsewhere he's other things. Similarly milk is llefrith or llaeth depending where you're ordering your coffee.