cave rope lengths / Dales

[caving_fox]

An inverse to the popular question of what lengths to cut a drum of rope into:
I'll be in the Dales with a limited set of ropes, what are the best/achievable caves available?

Is there an easily readable list cave / required ropes?

Yes I could read every page of the guidebooks, but before I embark on that I thought I'd ask here. (google only brings up the 'best lengths to cut' options.

Alternatively I have the following available to me, suggestions please on trips to try: 47, 60, 30m (plus ladder x2 !)

Swinsto would be an obvious choice. Others?

 

[MJenkinson]

Pull through Rowten.

 

[Caveman Ken]

I suggest think of some caves you would like to do and then check on here. https://cncc.org.uk/caving/topos/
The topos give the rope lengths you need

 

[Fjell]

Cut the 60 into 15, 20, 25m lengths. Tie together as required. The 47 is enough for most longer single drops in the caves you have enough rope for.

You need about 350m of various lengths to comfortably cover all caves in the Dales if you don?t want to be passing knots or humping excessive extra rope. Plus 40 krabs or maillons. Luckily about the limit for me and the wife in our old age, good thing we don?t live in France eh?

 

[s_allshorn]

Have just looked through CNCC topos for you. You could do any of these, but you'll have some spare rope on quite a few.
Long Drop
SE Alum Pot
Bar Pot
Car Pot
Bull Pot of Witches
Deaths head
Hardrawkin
Heron
Hunt
Jingling Pot
Jockey Hole
Lancaster Hole
Langcliffe or Oddmire
Magnetometer
New Rift Pot
Pillar Holes
Scanty Lardos
Sell Gill
Shuttleworth Pot
Short Drop
Sunset
Top Sink
Washfold
Yordas Pot top entrance

 

[caving_fox]

Have just looked through CNCC topos for you. You could do any of these, but you'll have some spare rope on quite a few.
Long Drop
SE Alum Pot
Bar Pot
Car Pot
Bull Pot of Witches
Deaths head
Hardrawkin
Heron
Hunt
Jingling Pot
Jockey Hole
Lancaster Hole
Langcliffe or Oddmire
Magnetometer
New Rift Pot
Pillar Holes
Scanty Lardos
Sell Gill
Shuttleworth Pot
Short Drop
Sunset
Top Sink
Washfold
Yordas Pot top entrance

That's really useful thanks very much!

 

[aricooperdavis]

This is a very easy question to answer using the Braemoor data that's been posted about previously on the forum. I've cobbled together a very makeshift tool that allows you to do this for your own rope lengths. For 47, 60, 30 it spits out:

Trip	Rope lengths required
Lost Johns' Cave (Dome Pot Alternative)	22, 19
Gaping Gill (Echo Rift)	24
Notts Pot (De Profundis)	28, 20, 20
Notts Pot (BUSS Route)	45, 25, 12
Notts Pot (Alternative entrance)	11, 9
Notts Pot (Acrobat Pot)	22, 12
Langcliffe Pot	35
Long Drop Cave	45, 12, 10
Oddmire Pot	30
Rift Pot (Entrance pitches)	40, 15, 10
Rift Pot (Bob Hole)	50, 25
Rift Pot (Bob Hole alternative last pitch)	45
Rift Pot (Main Shaft)	40, 25
Alum (South East)	55
Alum (under the Bridge)	45
Aygill Caverns	25, 20
Bar Pot	60, 35
Bull Pot of the Witches (chimney)	20
Calf Holes	30, 25
Cow Pot	60, 30, 30
Christmas Pot	40, 30
Hardrawkin Pot	40, 40
Hunt Pot	45, 30
Lancaster (Entrance)	55
Lancaster (Chasm)	40
Lancaster (Craptrap)	40
Lost Johns (Valhalla alternative)	50
Lost Johns (Sink Chamber)	30, 20, 15
Lower Long Churn (Dollytubs alternative)	35
Marble Steps Pot (Snow)	20
Marble Steps Pot (Gully)	60, 40
Marble Steps Pot (Wet)	30, 20
Marble Steps Pot (Sidewinder)	60, 45
Marble Steps (Intestines)	25, 25, 10
Marilyn	40, 35
Meregill Hole (alternative first two pitches)	30, 25
New Goyden Pot	25, 20
New Rift Pot	50, 30, 25
Notts Pot (Entrance)	20, 15
Notts Pot (Left)	45, 25, 15
Notts Pot (Twilight Zone)	55, 25
Notts Pot (Centre)	55, 35
Pillar Holes (1)	50
Pillar Holes (2)	50, 30, 20
Pillar Holes (3)	20
Roaring Hole	30, 30, 15
Sell Gill Holes (Fossil)	30, 30, 15
Sell Gill Holes (Goblin)	45, 45
Short Drop Cave to sump + traverse	50, 30, 20
Shuttleworth Pot	60, 20
Top Sink	35, 15
New Rift Pot (IC version)	45, 20, 20
Penyghent Pot Eyrie Pot	17, 15
Floyd's Entrance	20, 5
Lord Tot's Hole	15, 15
Heron Pot (normal)	25, 17
Heron Pot (High Level)	45
Aquamole Pot (alternative)	35, 20
Craftman's Pot	40, 20, 15
Jingling (from tree)	55, 17
Jingling (main shaft from rift)	55
Jingling (lateral route from trees)	45, 20, 17
Rowten Pot (Flyover)	35, 30
Rowten Pot (normal bottom)	30, 25
Slanting Cave	35
Turbary Pot	50
Valley Entrance	15
Yordas Cave	45, 15, 15
Yordas Pot	30
Forget-me-Pot	40, 30
Kail Pot	15
Large Pot	25, 25, 20
Large Pot (RHS Flake Pot)	40
Large Pot (Colossus)	40, 10, 10
Lost Marbles Entrance	35, 12, 12
Lost Marbles Entrance	60
Low Douk	5
Marble Steps	60, 30
Marble Steps (Wet Route)	55, 45
Marble Steps (90' to Intestines)	40, 20
Marble Steps Wet Entrance	25, 12
Marble Steps Wet Entrance (Marble Arch Series)	10, 10, 10
The Mohole	60, 30, 10
Rift Pot	45, 20, 20
Rift Pot (Cross Patch Inlet)	12, 10
Steps Pot	12

Note that the pitches are sorted by length, not the order you get to them. I also can't say that the data, or in fact the coding, is trustworthy.

 

[Ian Ball]

Hurnell Moss is good fun and doable in quite wet weather.

 

[s_allshorn]

Ari, your list is slightly flawed, your data has pitches before or after that means they aren't complete trips, like 1. Lost Johns, 2. Gaping gill, Echo Rift, 3. Notts Pot etc.   

 

[aricooperdavis]

Indeed, I'm blindly trusting the dataset so it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Happy to accept community amendments at: https://github.com/aricooperdavis/what-can-I-rig, although we might end up having to decide what constitutes a trip!

 

[Fulk]

Frankly, I don't think you'd get far down Lost Johns' with just a 22-m and a 19-m! Just as far as the top of one of the bigger pitches, maybe.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Jib Tunnel,55,55
You might end up a 1 metres off the ground on the last pitch even with rope stretch and using the stingiest amount of rope when rigging. Which may be do-able as long as you don't let go of the rope and see it rise a metre or two out of reach. If going with others you could build one of those human towers like the catalans to get it back

I'd be cautious to cut it too fine for lengths if this example is also true for any others?

 

[Fulk]

Well . . . I don't think that you'd reach the big ledge (oppposite Birkbeck's Ledge) with a 55-m rope.

 

[Ian P]

Well . . . I don't think that you'd reach the big ledge (oppposite Birkbeck's Ledge) with a 55-m rope.

A draft copy of the updated topo for Lateral shaft / Dihedral 

My calculations show 45m from top of Dihedral to Winfields ledge this is just the actual distance NOT the rope length 

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I agree, a 60 on first pitch is way generous, but a 55 on second pitch is too short.
But my concern wasn't necessarily the specifics of this route, but rather to suggest the underlying data used by Aricooperdavis needs double checking before anyone commits to a route. But a very interesting tool to reverse lookup so to speak

 

[mikem]

Anyway, the 60, 30 & 47 available would do it...

The database probably needs a way of differentiating between entry, continuation & alternative sections.

 

[langcliffe]

The database probably needs a way of differentiating between entry, continuation & alternative sections.

This is an example of the "database":

Lost Johns (Monastery),10,10,50,15,50
Lost Johns (Centipede),10,60,30,25,45,30
Lost Johns (Valhalla alternative),50
Lost Johns (Dome),10,10,30,25,15
Lost Johns (Sink Chamber),30,15,20
Lower Long Churn - Alum (traditional),25,25,35,20,25,20
Lower Long Churn (Dollytubs alternative),35
Marble Steps Pot (Snow),20
Marble Steps Pot (Gully),60,40
Marble Steps Pot (Wet),30,20
Marble Steps Pot (Sidewinder),45,60
Marble Steps (bottom section),10,30,40,30
Marble Steps (Intestines),10,25,25

The original purpose of the data required that each pitch was only recorded once.

 

[mikem]

A possible additional notation would be
A1 for first section, B1 if alternative
A2 for second, A/B2 if they rejoin etc
A0 if a rope above may be useful sometimes

 

[aricooperdavis]

For this use wouldn't it make sense to just list trips, even if the same pitch then appears in multiple trips? I'd have thought that this would be most useful for the original design of the dataset too (choice of rope lengths)...

 

[mikem]

It would, if someone wants to relist it. It would also be useful to split some of the longer ropes into appropriate lengths (maybe listed in brackets to show they can be rigged together) e.g. gaping gill main shaft can be rigged (25, 100) if you don't have 120 - I've allowed some extra