cave rope lengths / Dales

Fjell

Well-known member
Did you actually do Jib Tunnel direct? That goes straight through the water emerging below does it not? I can imagine it?s possible if the stream is diverted, but otherwise? Is that going on the CNCC topo?
 

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
Fjell said:
Did you actually do Jib Tunnel direct? That goes straight through the water emerging below does it not? I can imagine it?s possible if the stream is diverted, but otherwise? Is that going on the CNCC topo?
The last Saturday in Aug last year (stream not diverted) I went down Jib via Wingfield (not direct) and there was very little water coming out of the spout, I wouldn't say "dry" but certainly not "wet", definitely would've been quite doable if someone had wanted. Not saying how often it's in those conditions but it is a valid route
 

alanw

Well-known member
Fjell said:
Did you actually do Jib Tunnel direct? That goes straight through the water emerging below does it not? I can imagine it?s possible if the stream is diverted, but otherwise? Is that going on the CNCC topo?

A couple of BPC GG winch meets ago, I helped Kevin survey Spout Tunnel (which enters the shaft about 12m below Jib). Even with the usual dams in place, quite a lot of water comes down Spout (I believe that there are several sinks in the stream bed higher up). Dropping direct, rather than using the deviations would be most unpleasant except in the driest of conditions.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Fjell said:
Did you actually do Jib Tunnel direct? That goes straight through the water emerging below does it not? I can imagine it?s possible if the stream is diverted, but otherwise? Is that going on the CNCC topo?

Mike Wooding and I did it once in the 1980s in a dry spell.  It was liberally  sprinkled, but not desperate.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
We have been flood pulsed in Jib, from a dry day to deathly very quickly (cloudburst). When I say ?we?, it was my wife derigging as I was derigging Flood. It was kneedeep in the tunnel and all coms were lost instantly on Dihedral, couldn?t see or hear if the person above was actually off. Someone caught on Jib direct would have been lucky to survive. I got a very hard stare.

I think it is a reasonable assumption that most people would think those CNCC rigs are ?competent? in terms of avoiding gratuitous risks. If the whole cave floods to the roof, then so be it.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I once did 'Jib Tunnel Direct', in dry weather probably in the 1980s; I got very wet, but on a warm summer's day it wasn't too bad. (The stream wasn't diverted.)
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Fjell said:
I think it is a reasonable assumption that most people would think those CNCC rigs are ?competent? in terms of avoiding gratuitous risks. If the whole cave floods to the roof, then so be it.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "those CNCC rigs are 'competent' in terms of avoiding gratuitous risks". I agree that the standard Dihedral descent (originally established by Elliot and Lawson) is the best under normal conditions, but are you implying that anyone who deviates from that is taking a "gratuitous risk"?
 

Fjell

Well-known member
I think it is not a good idea for a rigging guide that will be used by the inexperienced as if it is OK, because it really is not (one of the dodgiest pitches in the Dales, also stones go down it). There are loads of possible rigs not on those topos. I have rigged Meregill straight down in dry weather, but you will struggle to get out if the water goes up much (a frequent topic of discussion when rigging the full string route with twice as much rope).

If I recall, Elliot mentioned in the text you could do Jib direct, but it was not a great idea, and was never going to be put on a topo by him for sure. The appropriate place would be in Northern Caves as an option with a strong caveat. The most important fact being it hangs free, which is what I would want to know. If you want adventure then ladder it. I refuse to buy enough ladder, just in case. In many ways a ladder woukd be safer because you should be rigged to lower someone to the floor. One of my basic tenets is that I should be prepared to execute an immediate one man rescue on any pitch I rig - Jib direct would be ?interesting?. I once had to lift someone off the final pitch in Diccan, it?s never going to be in the easy places for sure.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Fjell said:
I think it is not a good idea for a rigging guide that will be used by the inexperienced as if it is OK, because it really is not (one of the dodgiest pitches in the Dales, also stones go down it). There are loads of possible rigs not on those topos. I have rigged Meregill straight down in dry weather, but you will struggle to get out if the water goes up much (a frequent topic of discussion when rigging the full string route with twice as much rope).

Fair enough - you didn't actually indicate that you were discussing rigging guides in the post I responded to - unless 'rigs' is short for rigging guides. It's not an abbreviation with which I am familiar.
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
I've gone through the data file to reunite orphan pitches with trips that might include them. Obviously this is not an exact science, so I'm sure there will be trips missing, and maybe some trips included that are very rarely undertaken. Please feel free to add, remove, correct the data or open an issue and ask me to.

Now, for your lengths of 47m, 60m, and 30m, 'What can I rig?' spits out:

Trip Rope lengths required
Alum (South East Alternative)55, 40, 20
Alum (South East)55, 25, 20
Aygill Caverns15, 17
Bar Pot35, 60
Bull Pot of the Witches (Chimney)20, 30, 25
Bull Pot of the Witches (Direct)25, 30, 25
Calf Holes25
Calf Holes (Waterfall)25, 30
Cow Pot30, 30, 60
Craftman's Pot20, 40, 15
Floyd's Entrance5, 20
Forget-me-Pot40, 30
Hardrawkin Pot40, 40
Heron Pot20, 25
Heron Pot (High Level)50
Hunt Pot30, 45
Jingling (Lateral Cleft)35, 60, 20
Jingling (Tree)60, 20
Kail Pot15
Lancaster Hole (Chasm)55, 40
Lancaster Hole (Craptrap)55, 40
Lancaster Hole (Rope Climb alternative 1)55, 25
Lancaster Hole (Rope Climb alternative 2)55, 30
Lancaster Hole (Rope Climb)55, 20
Langcliffe & Oddmire Pot (Langcliffe)35
Langcliffe & Oddmire Pot (Oddmire)30
Long Drop Cave15, 12, 55
Lord Tot's Hole15, 15
Low Douk5
Marble Steps (Main via Lost Marbles Pot)12, 12, 35
Marble Steps Pot (Main via Gully)20, 60, 40
Marble Steps Pot (Main via Sidewinder Dry)30, 20, 60
Marble Steps Pot (Main via Sidewinder Wet)20, 45, 60
Mongo Gill19
New Goyden Pot25, 20
New Rift Pot (Direct)30, 20, 50
New Rift Pot (Route 66)30, 20, 45
Pillar Holes (No. 1)50
Pillar Holes (No. 2)20, 30, 50
Pillar Holes (No. 3)20, 30, 50
Pool Sink (Pull through)50
Sell Gill Holes (Dry)20, 30, 30
Sell Gill Holes (Wet/Goblin)10, 45, 45
Short Drop Cave (To Sump)20, 50
Shuttleworth Pot20, 60
Slanting Cave35
Swinsto (Pull through)45
The Mohole30, 60, 10
Top Sink35, 15
Turbary Pot50
Valley Entrance (Master Cave)15
Yordas Pot (Middle to Cave)10, 10, 40
Yordas Pot (Top to Cave)30, 40
 

caving_fox

Active member
aricooperdavis said:
I've gone through the data file to reunite orphan pitches with trips that might include them. Obviously this is not an exact science, so I'm sure there will be trips missing, and maybe some trips included that are very rarely undertaken. Please feel free to add, remove, correct the data or open an issue and ask me to.

That's really nifty little tool and is going to be very helpful now and in the future, thanks a lot! Far more effort than I'd anticipated anyone putting into answering.
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
Don't suppose anyone has done anything like this for the Peaks???
It would be very easy to extend this, maybe with a dropdown box to select your region, or within a radius of a point on the map or something. But someone would have to digitize all the trip data first!
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
The fantastic @wellyjen has done a bit this morning, so it might be worth co-ordinating your efforts. I've made a quick change to add a region selector, and the regions have seperate trips lists.

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