F
Frog
Guest
is anyone out there caving with a stoma?
just got mine so any help, advice would be much appreciated.
just got mine so any help, advice would be much appreciated.
W
wallop
Guest
Whats a stoma, is it a lamp? 
cap n chris
Well-known member
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/Stoma_care.html
Have taken a couple of children underground with what was probably this situation - obviously caution was required but you should know what's possible and what isn't once your own personal experience of your boundaries develops; mind you I suppose this is the reason you're asking around, to find out what the pitfalls are.
Have taken a couple of children underground with what was probably this situation - obviously caution was required but you should know what's possible and what isn't once your own personal experience of your boundaries develops; mind you I suppose this is the reason you're asking around, to find out what the pitfalls are.
W
wallop
Guest
Whoops!
F
Frog
Guest
wallop said:Whats a stoma, is it a lamp?
well you made me smile
F
Frog
Guest
cap 'n chris said:
thanks for the link. it was very useful.
one of the problems i can foresee is my harness sitting over the stoma site or over the bag and restricting the flow of output.
also i suppose im a bit worried about doing squeezy crawly stuff and damaging the stoma.
ive not even had it a fortnight yet so its all very new to me.
W
wallop
Guest
Sorry mate
underground
Active member
Frog, I couldn't say if it relates to the sort of info you'd like to find but this was posted a while ago on the ukclimbing forums: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=162939&v=1#2323017 relating to the inability to wear a harness due to the position of the poster's stoma.
I hope it helps, and helps you to get out caving again - good luck!
I hope it helps, and helps you to get out caving again - good luck!
F
Frog
Guest
underground said:Frog, I couldn't say if it relates to the sort of info you'd like to find but this was posted a while ago on the ukclimbing forums: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=162939&v=1#2323017 relating to the inability to wear a harness due to the position of the poster's stoma.
I hope it helps, and helps you to get out caving again - good luck!
thanks underground
i have contacted the poster in the hope she can give me some advice.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Not sure if this helps but vaguely related is the cave diver's need to urinate on very long submersions, which led to the invention of the "P valve" in the drysuit. What we've learned from this is the VITAL need to dress very carefully and methodically so that everything works when it needs to (as you can't get at anything once committed a long way into a sump). You really have to think carefully about what layers of clothing go where and double check for kinks in tubes etc.
Your challenge is more difficult than this but you have my utmost admiration and I really hope you get it sorted. Go for it mate!
Your challenge is more difficult than this but you have my utmost admiration and I really hope you get it sorted. Go for it mate!
F
Frog
Guest
pitlamp said:
cheers pitlamp.
im a diver aswell but being female dont have the luxury of a pee valve. diving is another of my sports i have to get back into. the problems i foresee there are pressure changes and air in the bag. it could get very messy!
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I take your point! Really all I was trying to say is don't underestimate the need to be very methodical when dressing or whatever system you come up with is more likely to fail. (I just used the P-valve as an example really).
If you're a diver what follows will probably be obvious but I think you can eliminate a lot of problems if the bag starts off totally empty of air. Before the P-valve was begat people used to use an internal bag and it was definitely better if it contained no air to start with. This was because if it did contain air, this would contract on descent. You then fill up the bag with urine but when you then ascend the air expands again and because some of the space in the bag is now taken up by liquid the total volume of liquid and expanding air in the bag bursts the bag! So try to eliminate as much air as possible from the bag before diving.
If you're a diver what follows will probably be obvious but I think you can eliminate a lot of problems if the bag starts off totally empty of air. Before the P-valve was begat people used to use an internal bag and it was definitely better if it contained no air to start with. This was because if it did contain air, this would contract on descent. You then fill up the bag with urine but when you then ascend the air expands again and because some of the space in the bag is now taken up by liquid the total volume of liquid and expanding air in the bag bursts the bag! So try to eliminate as much air as possible from the bag before diving.
F
Frog
Guest
thanks pitlamp for all your advice and i take on board what you say about elimating air to start with.
the only problem is that a stoma produces wind (basically it farts) and this goes into the bag. if this happened at depth then it would definately expand on ascent and the bags arent very good at venting air.
maybe i will have to get some incontinence pants till i know what will happen. i guess if im prepared then i can deal with a bit of mess. im sure i will have to in general day to day living at some point as nothing is perfect.
i have found there is a device to put over the stoma when wearing a seatbelt to protect it. i asked the nurse about this today in regards to using it with my sit harness and she thought it would be a good idea so theres one step forward.
the only problem is that a stoma produces wind (basically it farts) and this goes into the bag. if this happened at depth then it would definately expand on ascent and the bags arent very good at venting air.
maybe i will have to get some incontinence pants till i know what will happen. i guess if im prepared then i can deal with a bit of mess. im sure i will have to in general day to day living at some point as nothing is perfect.
i have found there is a device to put over the stoma when wearing a seatbelt to protect it. i asked the nurse about this today in regards to using it with my sit harness and she thought it would be a good idea so theres one step forward.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
How about making a rigid low profile plastic cover for over the bag (a bit like the hard outer carapace of a rebreather) to protect it / stop the bag getting squashed?
As regards intestinal gases - careful observation of diet may help you learn what's best to eat / avoid in the 24 hours prior to diving. Also it may help you learn what is the optimum period between food ingestion and diving, to minimise gases collecting in the bag. Get your doctor to refer you to a dietician. (Or even use charcoal biscuits? I once knew a bloke who had a wife that bullied him into eating charcoal biscuits because his flatulence was particularly bad.)
Could you modify a harness such that it avoids having anything (especially weights) around the waist? There are loads of alternative places to wear lead. Us cave divers used all sorts of ridiculous alternatives before the advent of the American sidemount system cured our painful bad backs on very long submersions. One such idea was the lead breastplate. Normally this was simply cast in an old frying pan with a couple of lengths of angle iron to make to slots then it was worn suspended from a tape SRT chest harness inside the drysuit. But one very well known CDG member had an exterior lead breastplate which made him look like a roman centurian!
Your problem is a challenging one and I'd be really keen to learn how you get on. I have a mate who is quite badly disabled, with whom I've been caving, fell walking, off roading and even cave diving. You'll be amazed by what you can achieve with real determination and inventiveness. Good for you I say.
As regards intestinal gases - careful observation of diet may help you learn what's best to eat / avoid in the 24 hours prior to diving. Also it may help you learn what is the optimum period between food ingestion and diving, to minimise gases collecting in the bag. Get your doctor to refer you to a dietician. (Or even use charcoal biscuits? I once knew a bloke who had a wife that bullied him into eating charcoal biscuits because his flatulence was particularly bad.)
Could you modify a harness such that it avoids having anything (especially weights) around the waist? There are loads of alternative places to wear lead. Us cave divers used all sorts of ridiculous alternatives before the advent of the American sidemount system cured our painful bad backs on very long submersions. One such idea was the lead breastplate. Normally this was simply cast in an old frying pan with a couple of lengths of angle iron to make to slots then it was worn suspended from a tape SRT chest harness inside the drysuit. But one very well known CDG member had an exterior lead breastplate which made him look like a roman centurian!
Your problem is a challenging one and I'd be really keen to learn how you get on. I have a mate who is quite badly disabled, with whom I've been caving, fell walking, off roading and even cave diving. You'll be amazed by what you can achieve with real determination and inventiveness. Good for you I say.
F
Frog
Guest
thanks pitlamp.
your suggestions are all very helpful and have given me something to think about especially the idea of a rigid cover.
i dont think my weightbelt will be a problem as i dont carry much lead with my rebreather and what i do carry fits on a basic weightbelt round my waist so that will sit above the stoma.
i think my caving harness will cause a problem but until i try it on i wont really know.
it will be a while before i am caving or diving as i was very ill prior to surgery so will have a fairly long recovery i think but i will let you know how i go on and what problems i encounter.
your disabled friend sounds amazing. i also have a disabled friend. shes not sporty but she gets on with life and nothing gets in her way.
your suggestions are all very helpful and have given me something to think about especially the idea of a rigid cover.
i dont think my weightbelt will be a problem as i dont carry much lead with my rebreather and what i do carry fits on a basic weightbelt round my waist so that will sit above the stoma.
i think my caving harness will cause a problem but until i try it on i wont really know.
it will be a while before i am caving or diving as i was very ill prior to surgery so will have a fairly long recovery i think but i will let you know how i go on and what problems i encounter.
your disabled friend sounds amazing. i also have a disabled friend. shes not sporty but she gets on with life and nothing gets in her way.
M
MSD
Guest
One or two suggestions....
A "Frog" SRT system isn't the only SRT system around. "Sit-stand" means just that, you are sitting in your harness a lot. Since this is a problem for you, the obvious solution is to wear a harness (but have it a little bit looser for comfort), but not sit on it.
It might well be worth looking at one of the American-style SRT rigs. My recommendation would be to try a Mitchell rig. This uses two hand jammers with foot loops, one to each foot. One foot loop and the rope itself is passed through a chest box and harness, with a safety loop from a harness to the other jammer. The chest harnees should also be linked to the sit harness. Thus if either jammer fails, you end up hanging on your harness (in this unlucky situation the bag will probably burst, but this will not be the thing you are most worried about at that moment).
The advantage of this rig is that you don't normally put direct weight on your harness, except to rest on long pitches. Instead the weight is shared between the legs, armes and chest harness, nicely avoiding load on the stomach/groin region. When you resting you can let your weight down gently and hopefully avoid a problem.
Addition of a third jammer on a cowstail (the so-called phase three rig) makes some manouvres easier and safer.
For diving, why not just make a small hole in the top of the bag (which you then cover with something aborbent)? Better a small controlled hole than an uncontrolled "explosion". A bag with a one-way valve like the good-old whoopee cushion would be another idea. (i.e. like a balloon with a long neck). Obviously you need to stay roughly in the same orientation, that the gas stays at the top of the bag.
On the other hand...with a lot of gas in the intestine and a bag onlay containing soldi/liquid matter, an increase of pressure outside could conceivably lead to a "flow reversal", where fecal material etc. is forced back into the body from the bag. I imagine this is not a very good idea and might increase chances of infection. I think having some air in the bag at dive start and having it sealed would tend to reduce this effect.
Hmm. This is tricky one, which needs careful thought and probably some experimentation to get the right set-up. Be aware, though of the possibility of a "flow reversal"....it might not make a mess, but it could possibly cause worse problems in the long run. Not that I'm a doctor though, so I don't really know. Better have a chat with your consultant on this one.
Anyway, all power to you! You'll work out solutions I'm sure.
Mark
Mark
A "Frog" SRT system isn't the only SRT system around. "Sit-stand" means just that, you are sitting in your harness a lot. Since this is a problem for you, the obvious solution is to wear a harness (but have it a little bit looser for comfort), but not sit on it.
It might well be worth looking at one of the American-style SRT rigs. My recommendation would be to try a Mitchell rig. This uses two hand jammers with foot loops, one to each foot. One foot loop and the rope itself is passed through a chest box and harness, with a safety loop from a harness to the other jammer. The chest harnees should also be linked to the sit harness. Thus if either jammer fails, you end up hanging on your harness (in this unlucky situation the bag will probably burst, but this will not be the thing you are most worried about at that moment).
The advantage of this rig is that you don't normally put direct weight on your harness, except to rest on long pitches. Instead the weight is shared between the legs, armes and chest harness, nicely avoiding load on the stomach/groin region. When you resting you can let your weight down gently and hopefully avoid a problem.
Addition of a third jammer on a cowstail (the so-called phase three rig) makes some manouvres easier and safer.
For diving, why not just make a small hole in the top of the bag (which you then cover with something aborbent)? Better a small controlled hole than an uncontrolled "explosion". A bag with a one-way valve like the good-old whoopee cushion would be another idea. (i.e. like a balloon with a long neck). Obviously you need to stay roughly in the same orientation, that the gas stays at the top of the bag.
On the other hand...with a lot of gas in the intestine and a bag onlay containing soldi/liquid matter, an increase of pressure outside could conceivably lead to a "flow reversal", where fecal material etc. is forced back into the body from the bag. I imagine this is not a very good idea and might increase chances of infection. I think having some air in the bag at dive start and having it sealed would tend to reduce this effect.
Hmm. This is tricky one, which needs careful thought and probably some experimentation to get the right set-up. Be aware, though of the possibility of a "flow reversal"....it might not make a mess, but it could possibly cause worse problems in the long run. Not that I'm a doctor though, so I don't really know. Better have a chat with your consultant on this one.
Anyway, all power to you! You'll work out solutions I'm sure.
Mark
Mark
F
Frog
Guest
Thanks MSD you have some good suggestions.
I will look into the harness system you have mentioned as it does sound like a good idea.
As for flow reversal when diving, I had considered this possibility but I havent actually asked anyone about it.
im not sure whether it would happen or not but it certainly needs looking into.
I think also I have to identify foods which cause wind and avoid these before diving.
Its like starting my life all over again with a whole new set of problems but I will get there.
I will look into the harness system you have mentioned as it does sound like a good idea.
As for flow reversal when diving, I had considered this possibility but I havent actually asked anyone about it.
im not sure whether it would happen or not but it certainly needs looking into.
I think also I have to identify foods which cause wind and avoid these before diving.
Its like starting my life all over again with a whole new set of problems but I will get there.
M
MSD
Guest
One issue which is important (that I forgot to say) is that rigs like the Mitchell are not, in their traditional form, very good for the European rigging style. For example removing the chestbox to pass a re-belay is a bit tricky to say the least. Some further modification might be useful. It's important to realise that the design of the rig must NOT allow you to end up completely hanging on the chest harness, since that restricts breathing and can prove fatal.
If you PM me with a fax/postal address I can send you some info about the Mitchell rig. I'm out of the country for a week though, so I don't have access to my caving books and materials until I get back.
I can also put my thinking cap on and maybe design a tailor made "stoma rig". Knowing the rough position/size of a stoma and bag would help. It makes some sense for someone with no stoma to try out these ideas, since I won't hurt myself in the process!
Mark
If you PM me with a fax/postal address I can send you some info about the Mitchell rig. I'm out of the country for a week though, so I don't have access to my caving books and materials until I get back.
I can also put my thinking cap on and maybe design a tailor made "stoma rig". Knowing the rough position/size of a stoma and bag would help. It makes some sense for someone with no stoma to try out these ideas, since I won't hurt myself in the process!
Mark
F
Frog
Guest
Thanks Mark
Pm on its way to you.
Pm on its way to you.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Have you considered a "Howie belt"? This was designed in the late 70s (I think) by the American caver Wil Howie. It's basically a nylon strap and buckle which is attached to your sit harness main attachment point, passes under one armpit behind you then over the opposite shoulder and is attached to a jammer (in Howie's case this was a Gibbs ropewalker) on the SRT rope. When you pass it round yourself before you start prussiking you yank it tight by pulling more tape through the buckle. You lean back into it whilst prussiking and it keeps you nicely upright. To pass an on-rope obstacle (such as a rebelay) you simply slip it back round the front and you are still safe because the jammer is still on the rope connected to you by what is now effectively a cow's tail - but you are then conveniently further from the rope to complete the maneouvre. I've never used one but I remember Jim Eyre going on about how good they are after he did Golandrinas years ago. Might be worth looking on t'internet for more info.
Because it's unilaterally worn you could maybe mount your stoma bag on the other side?
Because it's unilaterally worn you could maybe mount your stoma bag on the other side?
