CCC Newsletter - Feb 2015

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
I'm interested in the inclusion of Gwrych Castle Mines. Is this just Ogof Dulas or is there more involved? Ogof Dulas being the only significant hole in the area when I had an explore last summer.

Robin
 

royfellows

Well-known member
RobinGriffiths said:
I'm interested in the inclusion of Gwrych Castle Mines. Is this just Ogof Dulas or is there more involved? Ogof Dulas being the only significant hole in the area when I had an explore last summer.

Robin

Hi Robin

The mines covered by the agreement are in a schedule to the agreement and can be added to at a later date. Stuart is keen to expand our remit to include other places owned by other landowners where there has been access issues in the past. There is much to do and its early days.

 

Dave Tyson

Member
RobinGriffiths said:
I'm interested in the inclusion of Gwrych Castle Mines. Is this just Ogof Dulas or is there more involved? Ogof Dulas being the only significant hole in the area when I had an explore last summer.

Robin

IIRC this area was in the original agreement drafted by Elsie Little and the Forestry Commission. Stuart France and I had a potter around last year to check out what was present. We had a look in the Gwrych Castle Adit (blocked at the end), followed the line of mine workings on the surface and then had a look in the cave Cefn-yr-Ogof. There are several points where it would be possible to access the working from the surface with SRT, but the ground may not be very stable and so care will be needed. Gaining access to the area is a bit awkward as there are no public rights of way. There is unofficial access from a few points, but there are some locals who don't like people visiting...

CAL needs to come up with an access plan and a basic risk accessment for this area, but we are concentrating on more popular areas like Parc at present.

Dave 
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
Thanks Roy and Dave.

Yes I had a surface potter last summer, and agree there could be exploration potential.

Looks like the forest is used as a bike or motorbike race track.

Robin
 

Rhys

Moderator
royfellows said:
Stuart is keen to expand our remit to include other places owned by other landowners...

Careful as you go. Some people might interpret that as "Empire building". ;-)
 

Ian Adams

Active member
That was totally unnecessary Rhys and I can only assume you have posted it to cause trouble.

It is no secret that certain members of your caving club (SWCC) are being urged to come the (impending) CCC AGM to vote against the progress Stuart has made.

As you will no doubt be aware, the late Elsie Little had done a tremendous amount of work to secure access for EVERYONE (including commercial outfits) and had an agreement drafted. After she passed, her successor made no effort to pursue that work and it was shelved to the detriment of ALL cavers. I personally see it as beyond a dereliction of duty and a total betrayal of the very people he was representing in that capacity.

Stuart took over and was given ?absolutely nothing? and had to start from scratch. It has taken almost a year but with his consistent hard work he (and some others) have managed to secure a new agreement that benefits EVERYONE.

This is the CCC securing access for all cavers ? the exact opposite of your mischievous and inflammatory remark.

Ian
 

Rhys

Moderator
It was light hearted observation and a mischievous tease. Note the smiley!

Is there going to be a vote on this agreement? That's not apparent from the AGM agenda.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
The CCC committee mandated the Access & Conservation officer (Elsie, then Bernie, then Stuart) to seek agreement with FC/NRW, it doesn't need a vote (I assume this is the same in any club/association/group).

There are proposals to amend the constitution (very slightly) to aid the pursuance of access. I am quite certain you are fully aware of it as your own club has been circulated with a missive requesting that you vote against the changes.

The BCA and the CCC have within their constitutions the "spirit" of supporting cavers and access - quite why someone would then vote against any proposals that further that "spirit" is quite beyond me.

.... I find it very difficult to accept you are making a "tease" and even more difficult to accept you are not aware of what is going on not least because you (certain colleagues in your club that share your mindset) are right in the centre of it all.

Ian
 

Rhys

Moderator
As it happens, personally, I am not against the proposed changes to the constitution and do not share the SWCC committee/Conservation officer view that the changes represent a real threat to anything. However, as an individual, I do not have a vote on the matter. It's one club, one vote at the AGM isn't it?

Rhys
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Yes it is, your understanding is of the CCC/AGM is perfectly sound.

Thank you for clarifying your personal view on the proposed amendments, I hope there are a sufficient number of SWCC members who share your view and that the club votes in favour of supporting the access programme. 

All of the work being undertaken by the committee at the CCC is aimed at benefitting everyone, even those who vote against it.

There are three people, right now, working towards making this happen. It would be a terrible shame if their work were to be diminished.

I do, however, appreciate you outlining your own position.

Ian
 

Rhys

Moderator
You concede that the NRW agreement will not be voted on, but that there is a vote on constitution changes. Now you're talking about voting for "the access programme". Could you clarify what this programme is? Ta.
 

graham

New member
Jackalpup said:
The CCC committee mandated the Access & Conservation officer (Elsie, then Bernie, then Stuart) to seek agreement with FC/NRW, it doesn't need a vote (I assume this is the same in any club/association/group).

Interesting point. Was the Officer mandated to obtain this agreement, an agreement or any agreement? I rather suspect that a substantive document that may commit the Council should be approved by the Council in entirety. I make no comment about this agreement, merely about the constitutional principle.

Jackalpup said:
There are proposals to amend the constitution (very slightly) to aid the pursuance of access. I am quite certain you are fully aware of it as your own club has been circulated with a missive requesting that you vote against the changes.

Your (very slightly) is a value judgement with which others may not agree.

Jackalpup said:
The BCA and the CCC have within their constitutions the "spirit" of supporting cavers and access - quite why someone would then vote against any proposals that further that "spirit" is quite beyond me.

Possibly because they disagree that the proposed changes would lead to the advertised ends?
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Very poorly worded on my part, my apologies.

What I mean is that the CCC are pursuing access agreements with NRW (formerly the forestry commission) to enable all cavers to visit whenever they wish.

Stuart has negotiated and agreed a ?starting point? with a designated list of caves/mines that NRW have consented to. There are some conditions, one of which is that we need to undertake Risk Assessments on each one. That process has already begun principally with Stuart, Dave (CCC Secretary) and Roy (Cambrian Mines Trust)).

We are hopeful that we will be able to extend the list of caves/mines on NRW land after an initial ?see how it goes? period (one year is pencilled in).

Further, we are hopeful that we may be able to approach other landowners on the same basis using the NRW agreement as a model example.

The proposed amendments are to help enable this process.

I should also add that the CCC has no intention of negotiating for access where there is already an agreement in place (that probably goes without saying).

I was referring to the ?programme? as being the whole of the above. However, I was referring to the voting as being for the amendments.

Sorry for the confusion.


Ian

PS. Not meaning to be pernickety, but I didn?t ?concede? the agreement won?t be voted on, I answered your question asking if there would be one.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Graham,

I didn't see your reply until much later than I posted the reply to Rhys - sorry.

The mandate to pursue the FC/NRW agreement originated under the previous incumbents and was undertaken by Elsie. This then passed over to Bernie who stepped into Elsie's shoes and then to Stuart following the last AGM. I don't have the information available to answer your question. However, it does not seem to fall outside of the remit of the Access officer to pursue such an avenue in any event. Nevertheless, I am not privy to the original discussions of the "then" committee.

With regards to the amendments, I understand where you are coming from. They are only slight amendments and I accept that you (or others) may see that they have greater implications. There is no clandestine intent, no intention to fight landowners, only to foster relations with a view to easing access. I understand that some people may see it as some "conspiracy theory" (goodness knows there have been so many accusations on this forum alone, let alone within caving clubs and groups). The CCC wants to be progressive and relevant. To do this we need to move forward as events that surround us unfold. The best chance for greater access is to make the current NRW agreement work and use it as a successful example when approaching others.

Lastly, (sorry), I don't understand your reference to "advertised ends" ?

Ian
 

Stuart France

Active member
To get the mines access agreement up and running we need to write site risk assessments and to supply these to NRW for approval before our new system can go live.  We hope to have sufficient written up and agreed so that trips into the Parc and Rhiwbach mines can take place on the CCC AGM weekend.

My article in the recent CCC newsletter made it clear, I hoped, that the new company is an independent legal entity that exists to avoid present and future CCC officers having to embrace unacceptable legal risks personally in operating land access agreements.  CCC is an unincorporated body and its executive members are all jointly and severally liable for whatever CCC does wrong.  In the event of a legal compensation claim, the CCC officers will be the initial targets, but the member clubs of CCC would also be at risk.  Having a limited company instead to hold the access agreements avoids all of that risk falling on private individuals and caving clubs which, like CCC, are usually unincorporated with joint and several liability too.

It follows that CCC can have no control over such a company, otherwise it would be CCC in disguise and thus a sham.  By all means, we can discuss where we have got to with this access strategy at the upcoming AGM, and think about the best future directions, but CCC cannot hold a vote on whether the company should continue to exist, or be wound up, or dictate how it operates.  That is for its directors to decide because the buck stops with them and only they are accountable at law.

Our new company is only interested in creating brand new access agreements, not in taking over or influencing any existing arrangements.  We think our approach best suits those landowners that insist on a heavy-weight solicitor-written solid legal agreements, like a water company or major landowner or government would, and indeed did in the case of the mines.

Now, it just so happens that a certain big water company has stopped access into a certain big cave in South Wales, and we would like to get it opened up again.  I have already held informal discussions with them, and found out that it will need another weighty legal access agreement via solicitors, and useful to have a recommendation from NRW that the new mines access company is working well from their perspective.  This will be top of the access to-do list once the mines agreement has provided enough evidence of success to build on. 

As well as at known underground sites where legal access is denied, I can see that the new company might assist with obtaining formal permission for digging and cave prospecting too.

So can I appeal to everyone to support our aims to get more caving and discovery done in future years in a way that satisfies even the most demanding of landowners while containing the risks for the handful of individuals who are running the access systems through which the wider caving and mine exploring community will greatly benefit.

Stuart France
Cave Access Ltd

 

bograt

Active member
Very, Very, admirable in your area Stuart, you seem to be working very well in your area to ease the perceived barriers twix landowner & freelance spelio.
I think it is extremely encouraging that CCC are striving to come to agreements with local landowners to suit our pastime, Derbyshire (Peak District) always does the same.
Considering other posts on UKC, other regions are plodding, although the North seem to be catching up! - I think the next generation are taking note! :) :)
 
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