nearlywhite
Active member
Fjell said:
Which you can get for free via the BCA if it's for voluntary work
Child friendly caving clubs
- Thread starter Katie
- Start date
Which you can get for free via the BCA if it's for voluntary work
nearlywhite said:Fjell said:
Which you can get for free via the BCA if it's for voluntary work
Probably not a lot of cavers know this or more would take advantage of it - so it's good that this is being highlighted.
There are a number of clubs in Derbyshire, my own Orpheus C.C. is one, which are keen to encourage young people but don't currently have anyone with a DBS, so rely on parents being involved in order to comply with the BCA Safeguarding Guidelines for Clubs. Realistically, it is also quite difficult for a young person without their own transport to get to caving meets unless they have a parent who is prepared to drive them there. And the BCA Good Practice Guidelines do suggest that that you "Avoid taking children and vulnerable adults alone on car journeys".
Ian Adams
Active member
badger said:
Fjell said:
Fjell has it. Until and unless the legal risk to cavers/caving clubs is removed, some folk are always going to shy away from minors. We are (mostly) all volunteers and like to cave as a hobby. We don?t make money and we don?t want hassle. Whilst red-tape, additional risk and liability exists, some cavers will stay away from minors.
The only person in my family who has ever been rescued was one of my kids at the age of 8 by CRO. I didn't even know they had gone until they were there. It was a day like today, but got slightly damper all of a sudden like as sometimes happens round here. I would not have gone there that day. The leader of that trip looked slightly green when I saw them, and I'm not in the least surprised.
The problem with caving (certainly in the Dales) is it is a water sport, and that adds significant risk of all sorts of things happening. If you stick to dry caves that don't fall down it doesn't matter. If you don't do SRT or ladders of more than 20 foot it will be even safer.
Luckily we have two and a spare to cover this sort of thing.
The problem with caving (certainly in the Dales) is it is a water sport, and that adds significant risk of all sorts of things happening. If you stick to dry caves that don't fall down it doesn't matter. If you don't do SRT or ladders of more than 20 foot it will be even safer.
Luckily we have two and a spare to cover this sort of thing.
Katie
Active member
Thank you for all the replies.
I have replied to the enquirer and she seems very happy with my reply.
She is very happy to accompany her daughter on caving trips should they join a club.
I know not all parents would be comfortable with it, but she seems happy.
As a parent myself (to children aged 7, 5 and 4) I suspect most parents would not expect volunteers to be able and willing to take an 8 year old caving unaccompanied by a parent. I suspect this may change as the children get older and more independent though!
Lots of interesting ideas being raised in this thread though
I have replied to the enquirer and she seems very happy with my reply.
She is very happy to accompany her daughter on caving trips should they join a club.
I know not all parents would be comfortable with it, but she seems happy.
As a parent myself (to children aged 7, 5 and 4) I suspect most parents would not expect volunteers to be able and willing to take an 8 year old caving unaccompanied by a parent. I suspect this may change as the children get older and more independent though!
Lots of interesting ideas being raised in this thread though
badger
Active member
luckily for some young people there is voluntary organisations like the scouts, who are happy to take young people caving. the rules & procedures I do not think are that arduous to follow, although some would call it red tape.
The one hope is that you can keep them interested enough to take up caving later once over 18.
also some young people are very lucky to have a parent who will take them underground, again trying to keep their interest up until over 18.
But it is a fact that there more activities now for young people than ever to get involved with. Some a lot easier or more accessible than caving is.
I am not sure on the insurance side of things or welfare see BCA for the advice, but there should be no other reason that a club could not get someone qualified with a LCMLA award and a DBS and run trips,
The one hope is that you can keep them interested enough to take up caving later once over 18.
also some young people are very lucky to have a parent who will take them underground, again trying to keep their interest up until over 18.
But it is a fact that there more activities now for young people than ever to get involved with. Some a lot easier or more accessible than caving is.
I am not sure on the insurance side of things or welfare see BCA for the advice, but there should be no other reason that a club could not get someone qualified with a LCMLA award and a DBS and run trips,
2xw
Active member
If anyone is interested in the foreign aspect, the Spanish run kids camps on a local rather than federal level. The parents sign a waiver that they accept the risks and the kids can handle it. The trips are supervised by qualified instructors who do it voluntarily. Most of the time it is free for the young people but some clubs have a scheme that charges ?60 month.
Badger makes a good point mentioning the scouts and it's good that young people can be signposted to this - I guess we should be supporting scouts as much as possible in this regard.
As Badlad has pointed out the adventure academy in the Dales is a great idea, I feel, and I'm keen to see how it pans out post covid. Access restrictions make this difficult in other regions without significant negotiation.
I would certainly expect outdoor instructors to signpost interested young people to clubs, this requires said instructor knowing which club is happy to take youth and so perhaps we could push this clear route to caving for young people a bit more.
Anyways I'm supposed to be writing rather than doing caving stuff so I'll get back under my rock now
Badger makes a good point mentioning the scouts and it's good that young people can be signposted to this - I guess we should be supporting scouts as much as possible in this regard.
As Badlad has pointed out the adventure academy in the Dales is a great idea, I feel, and I'm keen to see how it pans out post covid. Access restrictions make this difficult in other regions without significant negotiation.
I would certainly expect outdoor instructors to signpost interested young people to clubs, this requires said instructor knowing which club is happy to take youth and so perhaps we could push this clear route to caving for young people a bit more.
Anyways I'm supposed to be writing rather than doing caving stuff so I'll get back under my rock now
Pitlamp
Well-known member
There is a good tradition of scout caving in the Dales. I was in the fortunate position (along with a friend) to be able to make substantial gifts to two of the local scout caving groups, from the estate of a caver who passed away a while ago. The deceased - and both of us - have very long associations with clubs denigrated by yesterday's post which has caused such an angry response. These gifts paid for a quantity of new oversuits for youngsters and for several scout leaders to be put through their cave instructor qualification.
We are senior club cavers, I guess. We're delighted to have been in a position to support youngsters going caving.
I was very surprised when "captain chris" made such awful remarks yesterday with no evidence to support them. Perhaps readers will consider my post here as just one example of evidence that he was completely wrong.
We are senior club cavers, I guess. We're delighted to have been in a position to support youngsters going caving.
I was very surprised when "captain chris" made such awful remarks yesterday with no evidence to support them. Perhaps readers will consider my post here as just one example of evidence that he was completely wrong.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Thanks Pitlamp; perhaps I should recouch things - for superkeenies who enquire, I'll say there are caving clubs and you are free to make enquiries but "be aware they don't run things the way you've done them today" etc.. I would add that I wouldn't recommend any. Contrary to your final sentence, though, I absolutely consider I am NOT failing my clients by swerving them away from clubs. The opposite is true. No-one seems to have nay-sayed my other observations so I'm presuming they still stand.
The thread was jogged by attending the CSCC virtual meeting on Monday evening and hearing from the training officer that an intended training event failed to occur due to people signing up for it not turning up after a night on the piss, which seems substantively evidential in supporting my view, does it not.
FWIW I've been in six or so caving clubs in +20 years and the overseas trips (permits etc.) are where clubs win hands down! - my decade-long membership of one Mendip club was entirely due to a string of fabulous Spanish jaunts. Big(ger) clubs have the international kudos/clout to get bureaucratic hoops jumped better.
Back to this country; there are too many personal anecdotes of caving trips being delayed to the afternoon by people still being half pissed in the morning that I've lost count. Personally I like to crack on and get caving on days off, so it's probably just a me thing.
Tseralo
Active member
Seeing as no one actually us. TSG has a safeguarding officer and has had in recent times 3 under 18-year-old members join. 2 are now 18 one is 16. I'm not sure most of our trips would be suitable for an 8-year-old though things can be arranged we are able to youngsters who can somewhat look after themselves with supervision.
I do find chris's comments a bit odd or at least no where near my own experience. Yes we do on occasion go to the pub but misogynistic behavior would not be accepted or any other xphobia for that matter. Ive had many a trip where we outnumbered the boys some where there were none at all.
I do find chris's comments a bit odd or at least no where near my own experience. Yes we do on occasion go to the pub but misogynistic behavior would not be accepted or any other xphobia for that matter. Ive had many a trip where we outnumbered the boys some where there were none at all.
Brains
Well-known member
The "accompanied" bit is a bit of a red herring in that it is there to assume the parent knows best BUT in a novel cave situation this cannot be deferred from the experienced (!) leader to the novice parent. Proper leaders in appropriate venues are the way ahead. Qualifications are an asset but not the whole story or a get out of jail card.
Fun for one minor is abuse for another, and knowing the difference is vital.
Fun for one minor is abuse for another, and knowing the difference is vital.
PeteHall
Moderator
Cap'n Chris said:
As someone who actually has kids, I have absolutely no problem with some places being child-friendly and others being child-free.
It is perfectly reasonable for adults to have a drink with their mates in the right environment. I wouldn't take my kids to any pub on a Friday night, but that's no criticism of the pub, or the clientele, it's just not the right place for kids.
As long as there are options for family-friendly caving clubs, I'm very glad that there are also clubs where adults can let their hair down and enjoy themselves in a child-free environment.
It's the Cave Diving Group 75th Anniversary dinner this weekend. It'll be my first night with no childcare responsibilities for over 18 months and I expect to have a few drinks and catch up with friends I haven't seen for ages. I don't expect to go caving the next day. Is this the kind of thing you are against Chris? If so, perhaps you should direct you criticism at the wedding industry as I'd be sure a much higher percentage of weddings result in hangovers than nights at a caving hut!
cap n chris
Well-known member
PeteHall said:
Not at all. You're not going caving with a hangover/while still drunk/suffering.
To quote an Association of Caving Instructors pamphlet, "Cave Sober: (Having a hangover is akin to caving while still drunk) - does this really need mentioning? Anyone who considers, or encourages, engaging in a hazardous pursuit while under the influence or after affects of alcohol is someone you're definitely better off avoiding".
If getting hammered the night/morning before a caving trip is part and parcel of a caving session/day/weekend then I'd imagine sensible people avoiding that like that plague, and anyone championing such a notion being outed as an irresponsible arse. Anecdotally I understand there are instances of partying cavers deciding in the small hours that caving naked while drunk is a great idea and they do precisely that. Or perhaps it's an urban myth.
badger
Active member
To back Chris up a bit, not to say I agree with everything he has said, and this not knocking lets say 18 to 25 group.
I would say most of us could point to an event where nights entertainments have got very boisterous, influenced by alcohol, and when I was a young person could say I would have been there.
Young cavers are no different to a Friday night out on the town with your mates, or like I said club 18 - 30 holidays. If as a parent that was your experience of a cave club then you might think that is the norm. And some clubs do have that reputation, whether you think that founded or unfounded is down to you. some clubs you can say the complete opposite mates having a nice drink & and socialising as you might at home.
But I think we are jumping way ahead of ourselves. Running a trip on a day event, for YP, there should be no issues if you follow certain rules/guidelines. Or having them as youth section to your club. Having YP stay overnight is a separate issue.
Also Scouts is not the only Youth organisation, only one I know rules/guidelines.
I would say most of us could point to an event where nights entertainments have got very boisterous, influenced by alcohol, and when I was a young person could say I would have been there.
Young cavers are no different to a Friday night out on the town with your mates, or like I said club 18 - 30 holidays. If as a parent that was your experience of a cave club then you might think that is the norm. And some clubs do have that reputation, whether you think that founded or unfounded is down to you. some clubs you can say the complete opposite mates having a nice drink & and socialising as you might at home.
But I think we are jumping way ahead of ourselves. Running a trip on a day event, for YP, there should be no issues if you follow certain rules/guidelines. Or having them as youth section to your club. Having YP stay overnight is a separate issue.
Also Scouts is not the only Youth organisation, only one I know rules/guidelines.
menacer
Active member
Generally, I think it's down to momentum.
All clubs go through peaks and troughs largely driven by interested people.
If several young families where to join the same club the momentum would be there to take responsibility for the roles because there is a self interest. ( Especially if they are your children)
As there are so many clubs, I guess there's never enough families in one club at any time for the momentum to develop.
Maybe parents with young children could consider making a virtual club, to be joined, whereby they could get their policies and red tape in place and travel around the country using any club because they have the red tape in place themselves as one organisation.
I know nothing about any of it by the way, red tape puts me off everything, so I'm prepared to admit, I could be talking of my arse.
All clubs go through peaks and troughs largely driven by interested people.
If several young families where to join the same club the momentum would be there to take responsibility for the roles because there is a self interest. ( Especially if they are your children)
As there are so many clubs, I guess there's never enough families in one club at any time for the momentum to develop.
Maybe parents with young children could consider making a virtual club, to be joined, whereby they could get their policies and red tape in place and travel around the country using any club because they have the red tape in place themselves as one organisation.
I know nothing about any of it by the way, red tape puts me off everything, so I'm prepared to admit, I could be talking of my arse.
Speleofish
Active member
I think Menacer's idea is a good one. It's essentially what happened to me - I was first taken caving by my dad and subsequently caving friends with mud-minded sons would take groups of us caving as there were no clubs willing to take on 10 year olds.
I was then lucky to join ACG when I was 13 or 14 (I forget which). They had a group of half a dozen active cavers who were keen to encourage youngsters when most of the other clubs locally wouldn't take people below 16. There may have been ACG members who got uproariously drunk after caving trips but I never saw evidence of this and the early start-time of many meets suggested an absence of hangovers. Even their Annual Dinner was fairly restrained (though the presence of many, many archaeologists may have helped).
Later I joined other clubs and my behaviour deteriorated....
I was then lucky to join ACG when I was 13 or 14 (I forget which). They had a group of half a dozen active cavers who were keen to encourage youngsters when most of the other clubs locally wouldn't take people below 16. There may have been ACG members who got uproariously drunk after caving trips but I never saw evidence of this and the early start-time of many meets suggested an absence of hangovers. Even their Annual Dinner was fairly restrained (though the presence of many, many archaeologists may have helped).
Later I joined other clubs and my behaviour deteriorated....
