Club hut toilets (split from Caving Memes)
- Thread starter anticrawling
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MediumCharlie
New member
Have you ever spoken to a woman about these issues? It might be worth doing (including looking at what they have said in this thread) before you assume you speak on their behalf.
paul
Moderator
Agreed.
PeteHall
Moderator
Yes, many.
Have you ever spoken to anyone outside your social demographic about these issues? It might be worth doing so before you claim to represent a majority.
Samouse1
Well-known member
The club asked it to be spread around to make other clubs/cavers aware, did they not? I'm sure people will have taken it up with them directly, but people have a right to be publicly angry about something that affects them or their friends, and discuss it.
A_Northerner
Well-known member
Trans people have existed in-and-around the caving community for decades, and clubs haven't ever found the need to question which facilities they use (through official policy) before.
The only reason anyone cares about this in recent years is because grifters in the media have chosen to use trans people as a scapegoat for very real problems in our society. It's sad to see so many of my fellow cavers falling for this, leading to the enactment of sledgehammer policies for individual cases.
Given that the primary concern of people on all sides of this discussion is welfare, I take it that all clubs we are part of have a Welfare Officer in place, and formally written procedures for grievances if a welfare concern arises?
Pete, you clearly have a bone to pick with University Clubs over this, but in my experience of more than a decade being on committees of both Student and Non-student caving organisations, student societies are a HELL of a lot better at dealing with welfare concerns compared to other caving organisations. Problematic behaviour is often stamped out before it develops. Non-student clubs could learn a lot from the safeguarding policies of student clubs.
The only reason anyone cares about this in recent years is because grifters in the media have chosen to use trans people as a scapegoat for very real problems in our society. It's sad to see so many of my fellow cavers falling for this, leading to the enactment of sledgehammer policies for individual cases.
Given that the primary concern of people on all sides of this discussion is welfare, I take it that all clubs we are part of have a Welfare Officer in place, and formally written procedures for grievances if a welfare concern arises?
Pete, you clearly have a bone to pick with University Clubs over this, but in my experience of more than a decade being on committees of both Student and Non-student caving organisations, student societies are a HELL of a lot better at dealing with welfare concerns compared to other caving organisations. Problematic behaviour is often stamped out before it develops. Non-student clubs could learn a lot from the safeguarding policies of student clubs.
Spaniel on crack
Active member
The BCAs safeguarding officer can help non student clubs with any safeguarding concers they have and offer advice on how to resolve and mange them
Leoo
Member
You might want to re-examine your maths there, given that at the Wessex there are equal numbers of unisex cubicles as ones in the women's bathroom.
In order for it to be a problem you are also assuming that all, or the vast majority of cis people will feel so uncomfortable being in the same bathroom as a trans person that they'll be forced to leave and go to the unisex cubicles, an attitude which I hope isn't the norm amongst Wessex members.
PeteHall
Moderator
The female toilets include two closed cubicles and and open area with basins used by women to change, as it's the only women-only area in the hut.
The unisex toilets contain a toilet, wash basin and space for one person to change alone.
So no, I don't need to re-examine my maths thanks
Why do you hope it's not the norm?
Are shy women not equally deserving of respect?
Why do you insist that they should be a minority?
hartfield_estate
Active member
This whole thing has nothing to do with "shy women" as there is no difference between sharing a bathroom with a cis woman and a trans woman unless you are transphobic. Cubicles are great. I know plenty of "shy women" that don't want to get changed in front of other women, which is their right, which is what cubicles are for.
Also, in a scenario where people are told to use the bathroom they're comfortable in, cis women are getting exactly the same amount of respect as trans women: a bathroom that is reserved for use for their gender.
Also, in a scenario where people are told to use the bathroom they're comfortable in, cis women are getting exactly the same amount of respect as trans women: a bathroom that is reserved for use for their gender.
PeteHall
Moderator
This may be your opinion, but it is pretty extreme to suggest that there are absolutely no differences between biological males and biological females.
Either way, the majority of people in the UK do not support your views, regardless of whether a transgender individual has undergone reassignment surgery.
Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25?
Scepticism towards transgender rights has grown across the board since 2022
yougov.co.uk
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
I'm glad your bigoted views have finally come out on this topic.
The majority of cavers that I have interacted with do respect people's right to change their gender. This "discussion" does not seem to have much to do with toilets anymore and seems to be a place for people to normalize transphobic views.
smelin
Active member
quite famously, the majority of a population supporting discrimination of a specific group of people based on fearmongering about that group does not make the discrimination acceptable, or reasonable.
hartfield_estate
Active member
Not what I said, at all. I said, it doesn't affect a woman's bathroom experience whether the woman next to her might have been assigned male at birth- unless perhaps one of the women involved is a transphobe. A neutral observation. Sure, there are differences between biological sexes (though definitions are terribly tricky and you'll find many definitions of "womanhood" exclude cis women, not to mention the variety of ways people are born intersex)
Peregrina
Member
Nobody thinks that, they're saying the differences don't matter in this context
The majority of people in the UK think that cavers are reckless, irresponsible, insane fetishists with a broken fear-reflex and a subconscious death
wish and that isn't true of all cavers just quite a few of them
Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25?
Scepticism towards transgender rights has grown across the board since 2022
Yes Britain has become a particulary transphobic country in recent years, largely fuelled by media and ignorance (that YouGov surveys says only 38% of Britons actually know a trans person), which is bad and not an excuse for tyranny by the majority.
Someone please double check my maths, but at the bottom of this page there's a link to the survey data showing a sample size of 2078 adults. According to Ibis world, as of 04/07/2024 there's roughly 42 million adults aged 18 to 64 in the UK (https://www.ibisworld.com/united-kingdom/bed/population-aged-18-to-64-years/44240/)This may be your opinion, but it is pretty extreme to suggest that there are absolutely no differences between biological males and biological females.
Either way, the majority of people in the UK do not support your views, regardless of whether a transgender individual has undergone reassignment surgery.
Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25?
Scepticism towards transgender rights has grown across the board since 2022
By my maths, 2078÷ 42 000 000 = 0.0000494762 or 0.0049% of the population.
Of that sample, 42% oppose the right to legally change your gender.
So your sample size is tiny to represent the "whole uk", your survey itself is misleading and doesn't prove that an actual majority of people support your narrow minded view even if it were scaled up to a reliable sample size and the founders of the survey site (Nadhim Zahawi, former chair of the Conservative Party (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadhim_Zahawi) and Stephen Shakespeare, former owner of the ConservativeHome website (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Shakespeare)) are inherently biased.
As you yourself suggested earlier, maybe it's worth talking to people outside of your social demographic before you claim to represent a majority
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