CNCC updated advice

[alastairgott]

Damn, Here was me slowly scrolling down the page hopeful that someone had found something that would allow Oceanrower to be able to part with his hard earned in the name of Cave rescue... not even a Tenner for the cause?

 

[mikem]

Well, if he gets caught, we'll find out... (It does suggest that spending more time driving than exercising wouldn't be "reasonable")

 

[PeteHall]

I live on an administrative boundary. I'm in Tier 3, but my local town, less than 2 miles away is in tier 4. Within my own administrative area, I'd have to travel 15 miles to the shops.

All our local woodland for walking and cycling is in tier 4. There are even a few slip rift caves within 10 minutes of home (albeit they are closed for winter), but they are tier 4 as well. In the tier 3 direction, we have agricultural land and quarries...

I'm glad we've agreed that it's perfectly legal for me to stay local, regardless of the arbitrary administrative boundary on my doorstep. I shall continue to use my common sense, avoid crowded areas and busy times of day, as I'm sure oceanrower will and I'm sure that in doing so, I won't increase the risk of covid for myself or anybody else. I'm confident that the plod will have no problem at all with that.

 

[NewStuff]

Common sense, or lack of, doesn't tell you if you have it and are asymptomatic, or are simply carrying it. That's literally the whole bloody point of limiting movement and contact.

As for your naive assumptions about the police, I assure you that if they decide they're unhappy about something (and you take that attitude with them, correctly or not, they're going to crawl up your arse and find reasons to throw the book at you), then you're in for a really bad day. Selfishness like this is the reason it's dragging out. Some people I know have literally been stuck in the house since March, as contracting this would likely finish them off. You think they're not going daft? Grow the f*** up and take some responsibility for your actions.

 

[Stu]

I live on an administrative boundary. I'm in Tier 3, but my local town, less than 2 miles away is in tier 4. Within my own administrative area, I'd have to travel 15 miles to the shops.

All our local woodland for walking and cycling is in tier 4. There are even a few slip rift caves within 10 minutes of home (albeit they are closed for winter), but they are tier 4 as well. In the tier 3 direction, we have agricultural land and quarries...

I'm glad we've agreed that it's perfectly legal for me to stay local, regardless of the arbitrary administrative boundary on my doorstep. I shall continue to use my common sense, avoid crowded areas and busy times of day, as I'm sure oceanrower will and I'm sure that in doing so, I won't increase the risk of covid for myself or anybody else. I'm confident that the plod will have no problem at all with that.

Interesting that people (numerous on the forums) frame it as what they think they'll get away with when dealing with the Police/the law. The bigger picture is, the law isn't the problem the country is facing.

 

[cap n chris]

The bigger picture is, the law isn't the problem the country is facing.

Correct. Economic armageddon is.

 

[Oceanrower]

Well, if he gets caught, we'll find out... (It does suggest that spending more time driving than exercising wouldn't be "reasonable")

You've made that up.

There isn't a law in the land that 'suggests" something!

 

[Fjell]

I live on an administrative boundary. I'm in Tier 3, but my local town, less than 2 miles away is in tier 4. Within my own administrative area, I'd have to travel 15 miles to the shops.

All our local woodland for walking and cycling is in tier 4. There are even a few slip rift caves within 10 minutes of home (albeit they are closed for winter), but they are tier 4 as well. In the tier 3 direction, we have agricultural land and quarries...

I'm glad we've agreed that it's perfectly legal for me to stay local, regardless of the arbitrary administrative boundary on my doorstep. I shall continue to use my common sense, avoid crowded areas and busy times of day, as I'm sure oceanrower will and I'm sure that in doing so, I won't increase the risk of covid for myself or anybody else. I'm confident that the plod will have no problem at all with that.

Interesting that people (numerous on the forums) frame it as what they think they'll get away with when dealing with the Police/the law. The bigger picture is, the law isn't the problem the country is facing.

No-one, but no-one, is going to drive 15 miles to the shops rather than the one they normally go to 2 miles away. This is a very common situation if you live in the sticks. Kirkby Lonsdale is now tier 4, from tier 2. If you live in Cowan Bridge are you going to drive to Lancaster?

So everyone round here is going to break the rules pretty much continuously due to the arbitrary boundaries. Universal criminality. Which is why it is not legislated. Once you have criminalised the entire population, what?s next?

 

[PeteHall]

Common sense, or lack of, doesn't tell you if you have it and are asymptomatic, or are simply carrying it. That's literally the whole bloody point of limiting movement and contact.

Limiting movement. Staying local,  my exact point NewStuff, so please save your abuse!

Would you suggest that I travel 15 miles to the shops, to a completely different community, that happens to be in the same administrative area, or travel less than 2 miles to my local town, where all the kids from my village go to school, that happens to be in a different administrative area and different tier?

I'm not talking about 'what I'll get away with' I'm talking about why it is sometimes perfectly reasonable and in fact sensible to travel between different tiers.

Outdoor exercise and recreation is being encouraged by the government to keep the nation healthy. If we all sat at home drinking beer and eating chocolate, we'd have a much bigger problem on our hands.

What is being discussed if I am not mistaken is how to take that exercise (which we are encouraged to take) in a safe way, within the letter and intent of the current rules, and the CNCC has helpfully provided advice to help cavers plan their exercise.

 

[mikem]

You've made that up.

There isn't a law in the land that 'suggests" something!

No, it's what the police advice document says.

 

[NewStuff]

I'm not talking about 'what I'll get away with'

Yes, you and Oceanrower absolutely are talkign about exactly that.

 

[Fjell]

Criminalising something widely normalises it.

Getting speeding points on your licence used to be a serious issue for insurance etc because you were only stopped if it was problematic. When they started using speed cameras and gave out millions of tickets it became commercially and socially normalised.

Hence if people know they have broken the covid guidance, they have a higher tendency to do it again and again, regardless of tiers or whatever.

I suspect most people behave the same regardless of tiers by now. Badly or goodly or whatever. We certainly do. I?m trying to keep granny alive whilst sending kids to school.

 

[Stu]

The bigger picture is, the law isn't the problem the country is facing.

Correct. Economic armageddon is.

Because Covid. A health service breaking (aside from the emotional toll on their workers) makes us all less productive. And I think you're being excessive with the armageddon outlook. National economies don't work like that. We can print money. Inflation is an issue but consumption is way down anyway and interest rates are zilch.

 

[ChrisJC]

The law is a very blunt instrument for dealing with a fast-changing lethal pandemic like Covid-19.

It is sad in a way that it is even required - if we all took personal responsibility and just stayed in unless absolutely necessary, we would be in a better place right now. Unfortunately some people seem to see it as a challenge to worm their way around the blunt instrument by being clever. Their moral compass should be enough to tell them to stay at home.

Chris.

 

[alastairgott]

If my house were in tier 3 but the road outside tier 4, then I would be living in tier three. And therefore I would probably term it ?what I would get away with? when I really mean getting on with my law abiding life.

Life is full of choices, if leaving your house to go for exercise means it?s necessary to cross borders then who?s to say it?s wrong. I was cycling 60, 70miles at the height of lockdown as there was nout else on. It meant I was able to cycle the nearby cat and fiddle with 3-4 cars passing me on the whole route.

I was law abiding as I was exercising from my house and to my house, 1 form of exercise, the fact that I was doing significantly greater amounts of a form of exercise than I normally do didn?t matter.

But still at the time I was being asked, are you sure you can do that during lockdown, err well yes!

Everyone falls on some point of the [edit] risk[/edit] spectrum, going to a rave with 200 other people your on that [E]risk[/E] spectrum, going to the shops three times in one week on the [E]risk[/E] spectrum, letting someone not in your house stroke your dog on the [E]risk[/E] spectrum.

None of us are perfect, but we must strike a balance [edit] which ensures we are by our own admission within the law[/edit]. There are people who have to tell you the black and white of the matter (the government [even if we hate them], the CNCC, the BCA) but each of them are trying to do their best in the circumstances.

There are people who will be on the fringes of the rules and carry on regardless. The grey area is harder to distinguish when leaving your front door is a grey area apart from exercise and all the other things your allowed to do when standing on your head singing the hockey cokey.

 

[Stu]

Common sense, or lack of, doesn't tell you if you have it and are asymptomatic, or are simply carrying it. That's literally the whole bloody point of limiting movement and contact.

Limiting movement. Staying local,  my exact point NewStuff, so please save your abuse!

Would you suggest that I travel 15 miles to the shops, to a completely different community, that happens to be in the same administrative area, or travel less than 2 miles to my local town, where all the kids from my village go to school, that happens to be in a different administrative area and different tier?

Should you travel further? Probably because the paradigm needs to shift from thinking local to one of less infectious. If those children's school is in a Tier 4 area I'll be surprised if it's open much longer.

I'm not talking about 'what I'll get away with' I'm talking about why it is sometimes perfectly reasonable and in fact sensible to travel between different tiers.

What is perfectly reasonable multiplied 67 million times... That's a big number.
Outdoor exercise and recreation is being encouraged by the government to keep the nation healthy. If we all sat at home drinking beer and eating chocolate, we'd have a much bigger problem on our hands.

Absolutely. Go for a local walk. We found loads of little paths and routes around a one kilometre radius of our house. A strange delight was a neglected cemetery. The kids had real interest in the who and why etc. Shift the paradigm again. Find a hilly street and run up that a dozen times. Or do people just mean the exercise they want to do?

What is being discussed if I am not mistaken is how to take that exercise (which we are encouraged to take) in a safe way, within the letter and intent of the current rules, and the CNCC has helpfully provided advice to help cavers plan their exercise.

They have.

 

[PeteHall]

if we all took personal responsibility and just stayed in unless absolutely necessary, we would be in a better place right now.

Then why has the government been constantly encouraging us to take outdoor exercise since the very start of the pandemic?

Perhaps because exercise is considered to be absolutely necessary for the long term health and wellbeing of the nation?

 

[Stu]

if we all took personal responsibility and just stayed in unless absolutely necessary, we would be in a better place right now.

Then why has the government been constantly encouraging us to take outdoor exercise since the very start of the pandemic?

That's not completely true though is it? First lockdown was don't leave your house and then some very mixed messaging about 30mins but from your door... Of course if Johnson had got a grip such as the NZ PM instead of shaking hands and mumbling about 12 weeks, we'd be in a very different place.

But we didn't, and the vaccine isn't the magic bullet that makes it go away. That's not how vaccines work. People can still become ill but less so. They still need treating and what of long term effects?

Perhaps because exercise is considered to be absolutely necessary for the long term health and wellbeing of the nation?

Agreed. Just don't be a potential spreader.

 

[mikem]

NZ situation has more to do with their isolation in the Southern Ocean, than any government. But their economy relies on tourism.

 

[Stu]

NZ situation has more to do with their isolation in the Southern Ocean, than any government.

You mean like an island off to the west of Europe?