Cover for visiting cavers

[mrodoc]

It has occurred to me. What is the situation regarding insurance cover for visiting cavers from overseas. A can of worms probably. I certainly have taken cavers from two other continents at least underground in the UK in recent years.

 

[Lankyman]

Would this not be a concern of their own insurance cover? Whenever I have travelled abroad I have taken out insurance appropriate to whatever activity I was undertaking. The only time I have caved with foreign cavers was in their own country and it never occurred to me to check what their insurance situation was. I did once strain a knee joint in New Zealand and saw a GP but it was as if I was in the UK and no-one asked for payment/insurance details etc.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Most UK caves don't require any insurance cover. Even those that ordinarily require BCA membership (such as OFD) allow membership of foreign associations as an alternative (and there isn't actually an insurance requirement). Since mountain and cave rescue is free in the UK, the requirement for insurance is greatly reduced (only public liability is required for some sites). So it's probably not a problem 95% of the time?

I don't think UK insurance companies can sell insurance to non-UK residents normally. BCA membership includes worldwide public liability insurance, but only for UK residents. It does not include personal accident cover. I presume membership of foreign associations also often includes some insurance cover but this may/may not be public liability. In most cases where there is an access agreement and you (as a BCA member) are accompanying the foreign cavers, the insurance will cover liability to the landowner anyway I think.

What risk in particular would you worry about?
If you (as a BCA member) somehow accidentally cause loss to the foreign caver (damaging their kit/carelessly dropping a rock on their head or something), you are covered (public liability).
If you (as a BCA member) non-commercially teach someone it is totally fine to climb a ladder unlifelined and they successfully sue you, you are covered (professional indemnity).
In many cases accidents will not result in liability due to Volenti non fit injuria anyway.
If they cause claimable loss/damage to you, then it would depend on any insurance they have.

 

[mrodoc]

Both responses explain the issue and I must say I have taken out travel insurance covering caving in the past. Won't worry too much then - not that I have in the past but was curious to see some readings of the situation.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Saw the post title: Cover for visiting cavers

Assumed "cover" meant "cover for action" and it was about how to visit places surreptitiously or maybe hide caving trips from wives, for either us and/or some visiting cavers.

No such tips. Leaving the thread disappointed and empty handed

 

[ChrisB]

hide caving trips from wives

It's probably more important for you to hide your wives from each other, than hide caving trips from them. I only have one wife and she's a caver too.

Apologies for extending the off topic.

 

[martinr]

It has occurred to me. What is the situation regarding insurance cover for visiting cavers from overseas. A can of worms probably. I certainly have taken cavers from two other continents at least underground in the UK in recent years.

Ask them to become a prospective member of your club?

From

Insurance & Membership FAQs

Be warned: this FAQ has 92 entries. To save you some time I have read it all, and statistically the answer to your question is probably “No.”. You’re welcome. BCA is the successor organisation to the…

british-caving.org.uk

52: How do we insure prospective members (e.g. novices coming on their first caving trip for a taster session)?​

Clubs will automatically be covered for prospective members so long as the club have paid their BCA membership/affiliation fee. There is no limit on the number of prospective members a club can take caving in any given year, but, see 53 and 54 below:

53: How long are prospective members covered for?​

Cover is given to prospective members to attend up to 4 visits at a club. Upon the 5th visit the member must either join the BCA if they wish to avail of the insurance as a member benefit of joining the BCA, or no longer take part.

54: Will clubs still have to keep records of prospective membership?​

Yes. The following information of prospective members must be recorded:

• Names
• Addresses
• Dates they went caving
• Where they went caving

These need to be recorded and sent to BCA at / or before the end of each year.

 

[andrewmcleod]

90: Our caving club has overseas members. Should we pay to insure them?​

UK and foreign nationals who reside outside of the UK for more than 6 months of the year are insured for their BCA related activities via membership of the BCA while in the UK or Eire only. For caving activities abroad they would need to source insurance from the country they are domiciled in.

(this is actually more generous than I thought as it turns out BCA membership _will_ cover non-residents, but only while in the UK/Eire)

 

[Bob Mehew]

Just to spell it out, the BCA insurance can be applied to foreign visitors provided they apply to become a prospective member of a club and restrain themselves to 4 trips for free or pay up for 5 or more trips (FAQ 53). But, and it is a big BUT, the cover is only for public liability. So it would not cover hospital costs if the visitor was injured as a consequence of their own fault. And note that payment is usually upfront of treatment for most things other than A&E. (Google "cost of hospital treatment for foreigners" for some detail.) And even if it were eventually proven that another member on the trip was responsible for the injury, it would be months if not a year or more for the claim to be settled. So a foreign visitor will need either a big wallet or travel insurance covering caving injuries. (That's excepting visitors from countries which have an agreement with the UK, like to EU.)

 

[JoshW]

Just to spell it out, the BCA insurance can be applied to foreign visitors provided they apply to become a prospective member of a club and restrain themselves to 4 trips for free or pay up for 5 or more trips (FAQ 53). But, and it is a big BUT, the cover is only for public liability. So it would not cover hospital costs if the visitor was injured as a consequence of their own fault. And note that payment is usually upfront of treatment for most things other than A&E. (Google "cost of hospital treatment for foreigners" for some detail.) And even if it were eventually proven that another member on the trip was responsible for the injury, it would be months if not a year or more for the claim to be settled. So a foreign visitor will need either a big wallet or travel insurance covering caving injuries. (That's excepting visitors from countries which have an agreement with the UK, like to EU.)

As ex-insurance manager, I want to say whilst technically this would work, it’s very much not in the spirit of the point of the ‘taster sessions’ for joining a club.

These taster sessions were specifically negotiated into the policy to help clubs encourage more people to get into caving- it was not included to circumvent international cavers insurance needs.

As pointed out above - consider what public liability insurance actually does and then consider if it fits the needs.

Generally travel insurance will include an element of public liability insurance within it (but unlikely to be £20m)

 

[Bob Mehew]

These taster sessions were specifically negotiated into the policy to help clubs encourage more people to get into caving- it was not included to circumvent international cavers insurance needs.

Accepted.