Cow tails options - What do you do?

[Bob Mehew]

It would be good to have a dabble with the test rig sometime, would that be at all possible? I'm based in Sheffield but have wheels and the occasional free weekend.

Minor problem is both rigs are not really available at this moment in time.  One is off being modified, the other is having one instrument repaired (it could not stand up to being repeatedly dropped!).  I hoping the modification will be done by mid May but not sure about the other.  However if time is no real concern, then you could play on the mobile rig at EuroSpeleo in August to get some ideas before going onto the instrumented rig.   

 

[Brains]

For my tuppence, I use a single length of 10mm dynamic, with a "central" fig8 and krabs held by half a stopper knot (scaffold knot). For preference I have made the conscious decision to use snap gates and clip from behind the rope so the gate is away from the rock. I have had experience of being with people using twistlock and screwgate options who have had them seize up due to mud ingress and preventing either clipping or unclipping from a rope. Further, I have seen those of a nervous disposition tighten up the screw gate while hanging from it, and then wonder why it cant be undone. Becoming marooned under water or at a hanging rebelay is not my idea of fun. A small knife would help of course, but then they would be a cows tail down. I am aware that krabs can unclip themselves, especially when clipped into a bolt directly or another krab/maillon, nut this risk is minimised by clipping a loop or the traverse line. I have seen several issues caused by locking krabs, but never one caused by a snap gate. These can and do happen, but I contend they are the lesser issue. I learnt my SRT form a well respected CIC, who taught me there are several ways to solve a problem, and to assess the risks for myself by reading, discussion and practice. Some will disagree with my reasoning but thats fine by me.

 

[Bob Mehew]

I have seen several issues caused by locking krabs, but never one caused by a snap gate.

See http://www.cncc.org.uk/anchors/tg-warning.php

 

[Fulk]

Interesting comments, Brains, and ones that I acknowledge and respect.

My point of view is that I use screw gates on my cow's tails but treat them, for the most part, as snap links, so that on the rare occasions that I need the extra security of being 'screwed in', as it were, it's there for the taking. I've never had the problems you describe with screw gates. Each to his own.

 

[global_s]

Does anyone use any kit like this for a bit of extra peace of mind. I know we shouldn't take big fall factor falls, but it does look quite neat....

 

[Mark Wright]

Does anyone use any kit like this for a bit of extra peace of mind. I know we shouldn't take big fall factor falls, but it does look quite neat....

See reply No's 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38.

You probably need to pay a visit to specsavers.

Mark

 

[global_s]

See reply No's 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38.

You probably need to pay a visit to specsavers.

Mark

I do. I totally missed page 2  :-[

 

[GT]

If you're a climber retire a 9mm climbing rope early...

Personally I'd rather use my climbing ropes until the end of their working life and also spend ~?5 on a short length of 9mm than having to retire an ~?80 rope at say, 4 instead of 5 years of climbing use.

I'd rather not lose out on 1/5th of ?80 (?16), for the sake of a single years worth of safe usable life from 60 metres worth of cowstails, my cowstail 'burn rate' is significantly lower than what would be cost effective here. But I do appreciate the nod towards frugality.

Keep in mind the climbing rope will be already be fairly ragged from gritstone and sharp bubbly volcanic stuff, lowering off sport routes, abbing in the fells and so on before it's even seen the kind of mud and abuse caving would subject it to.

New rope = peace of mind.

Just to throw into the pot...

As others have said I'd favour keeping things simple rather than some of the complex set ups which will potentially clutter up a busy harness.

If you are buying rope by the meter from a shop have a good look at what you're getting. There's a lot of shops around us (North Wales) that sell climbing rope by the meter, but it's often Gym rope. This stuff conforms the the appropriate EN standards for dynamic climbing ropes (i.e in part, and the part most applicable to cows tails, is that a impact force of no more than 12kN should be measured in repeated 1.78 fall factor drop tests with a 80kg mass), however is hard wearing and low(ish) stretch so is likely to deliver quite a high peak impact if you fell on it. If you shop around you'll find ropes vary in the peak impact, with some manufactures achieving impressively low figures. This one for example (https://www.bergfreunde.co.uk/tendon-smart-lite-98-mm-single-rope/) delivers a 7.9kN impact and can be bought in 30m lengths (so you can flog some to your mates). I've seen others closer to 7kN or less. Worth shopping around for a low impact rope maybe before going for something more complex?

 

[Brains]

I have seen several issues caused by locking krabs, but never one caused by a snap gate.

See http://www.cncc.org.uk/anchors/tg-warning.php

Indeed, this is a worrying aspect that needs considering. However, I personally have not seen this issue live, but have seen it demonstrated. By clipping the ropeloop or traverse line this problem can be minimised. I have however seen people stuck in wet places or hanging in a harness bacause thay cant undo a jammed screwgate. For those wisishing a best of both worlds Fulks option is reasonable, just remember not to overtighten the barrel when hanging off the krab!
Keep with the 7P's and play safe!

 

[Bob Mehew]

However, I personally have not seen this issue live, but have seen it demonstrated.

As I recall it was discovered the hard way by an accident which due to location and circumstances was recovered by the party who I will not embarrass.  :-[

 

[andrewmcleod]

I do enjoy the endless discussion about the merits of varying kinds of knots and ropes etc, but...

If you really worry about this enough, there are purpose-built products designed to take FF2 falls and still deliver <6 kN reliably. Some caution should probably be made of the recalls of Via Ferrata kit a few years ago though; grit etc seriously weakened them - and caves are pretty messy places! But something like this is probably bombproof enough as long as you keep an eye on it?
http://www.ropeandsling.co.uk/product/shock-absorber-web-lanyard-1-80m-incl-k12/
(this was just the first thing I saw on Google!)

Personally I would rather just not take a high FF fall onto a cowstail.

 

[Madness]

Or you could just tie more knots in your cowstails

 

[pwhole]

Cowstail rope should also be dry-treated (i.e. more expensive), as non-treated dynamic loses a lot of its strength if it's soaked through. Mammut Galaxy Dry is the kind of thing, but it's expensive. I use 3.5m for my cowstail setup, so it's about a tenner to keep me alive, which seems decent value really...