Cultural History of Gender

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cap n chris

cap n chris

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Mod comment: New Thread split from https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/cutting-edge-fear-of-falling.31972/#post-394648. Please comply with Forum rules!

aricooperdavis said:
Mod comment: stay on topic please. Happy for you to discuss the cultural history of gender in a different thread if you wish.
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"Ladies and Gentlemen, Girls and Boys" used to be the polite and courteous greeting in civilised society when performers were addressing an audience, for example. It was the epitome of the established two gender society at large and there was no toxic or hateful culture* implicit in it.

*Like that which exists nowadays in our amazing new multigendertopia.
 
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Samouse1 said:
Coulda stopped after faff….View attachment 19616
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That’s because gender is a description of a set of behaviours within a sex. The range is very wide. But they never overlap. The venn is two non-overlapping circles. I have never ever met a male who seriously exhibits most female characteristics, not even close (or vice-versa). All you are doing with espousing “genders” is picking a point on the curve within one sex or the other.

I would have thought this was pretty obvious. It’s maybe way more obvious once women have children, it’s a whole new road and there is no way back once your brain is rewired. It’s the main reason why older women find this “debate” so comical, they know what happens. Men can’t walk that road, the way is shut. That has never been different in human history. If we can do some Iain Banks level genetic engineering or brain transfer then maybe we could all give it a go, but that seems a distant prospect.
 
Dictionary: Definitions from Oxford Languages

noun: gender; plural noun: genders

1.

the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

"the singer has opted to keep the names and genders of her twins private"
 
I don't think fjells barrage of nonsense is particularly worthy of a reply but I do think people will see this thread and take it as truth so for those people; please know that people experience things differently from eachother. You don't need to understand that per se, you just need to NOT tell them there's something wrong with them for having a different lived experience than you.
 
Oh my buddha, what a thread.

@hartfield_estate has very succinctly responded, with some great input from @thehungrytroglobite as well. Thank you both for preventing me needing to get involved.

For anyone in the caving community (or wanting to join), please know these Neanderthal views aren’t the view of the majority of the sport, and please don’t let it put it off you getting involved. If you do have negative experiences and you’re not sure how to approach it or just want some support, please feel free to reach out to me on here or at inclusivity@cncc.org.uk
 
Makes you wonder what happens when all these AI entities find physical form in autonomous robots. Will they have a sense of self? Will they have a sense of gender? Maybe they'll have groinal sockets like Kryten and just latch and detach as necessary.
 
At least the Cass review has properly reestablished the situation as a classic mental health issue. A stance backed to the hilt by every reputable current affairs and medical journal, included the British Medical Journal at some length. The same has happened across northern Europe.

At this moment there are a growing number of employment tribunal cases of nurses who been fired for refusing to undress in front of biological males. The latest of which involves someone who openly told everyone they enjoyed it (and is in a sexual relationship with a woman). Does this seem kind to you?

It’s largely a middle class hysteria and it will die out bringing the situation back to where it was a decade ago.
 
Regardless of debates around definitions, medicine and politics isn’t it just enough to respect how individuals want to be treated in public.

Your views are your views and I don’t think any response on this forum is going to change them (despite how strongly I disagree). The point of a public caving forum is to be open and accepting to all cavers. To make certain groups of people feel unwelcome and discounted by unnecessary jokes like cap n chris’ or accusatory rants like this one is just horrible.
 
At this moment there are a growing number of employment tribunal cases of nurses who been fired for refusing to undress in front of biological males. The latest of which involves someone who openly told everyone they enjoyed it (and is in a sexual relationship with a woman). Does this seem kind to you?
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Excuse my ignorance, but why would a nurse (and I'm assuming this must be a female nurse) be expected to undress in front of biological males – or, indeed, anyone else at all?
 
ChrisB said:
AIs can be whatever gender they choose, except non-binary. 💻😜
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Quantum computer AI will arrive this century. Perhaps it could be all genders at the same time? Maybe that will give it the perspective to communicate and persuade future generations of humans how to behave kindly and respectfully to each other.

Hint : It’s not hard, you can just choose to do that now.
 
Fjell said:
At least the Cass review has properly reestablished the situation as a classic mental health issue. A stance backed to the hilt by every reputable current affairs and medical journal, included the British Medical Journal at some length. The same has happened across northern Europe.

At this moment there are a growing number of employment tribunal cases of nurses who been fired for refusing to undress in front of biological males. The latest of which involves someone who openly told everyone they enjoyed it (and is in a sexual relationship with a woman). Does this seem kind to you?

It’s largely a middle class hysteria and it will die out bringing the situation back to where it was a decade ago.
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The Cass Report is not really relevant in this discussion as it is concerned with healthcare provision for children and young people (under the age of 18) with possible gender dysphoria.

The NHS website clearly states that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but having gender dysphoria can lead to mental health challenges. I'd say the latter is most likely a result of the constant vitriol that trans people are exposed to.

It's worth noting that Amnesty International have put out a statement noting that the Cass Report is being weaponised by anti-trans groups.

I have only skimmed reviews of the report but I feel inspired to sit down and read all 400 pages of it now, and follow up on these claims of yours about 'every reputable current affairs and medical journal' that support this 'classic mental health issue' definition. With the exception of the BMJ, could you please provide me with the names of these highly rated publications? The faster I get reading, the sooner we can revisit this. I'm sure you appreciate healthy discourse?
 
Fulk said:
Excuse my ignorance, but why would a nurse (and I'm assuming this must be a female nurse) be expected to undress in front of biological males – or, indeed, anyone else at all?
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Because you need to get changed into something sterile. My son who is a nurse uses the mens version. You won’t be surprised to learn it has plenty of space.

Some nurses are coming to work with scrubs under their clothes to avoid it. This is not good.
 
Tim Pickering said:
The Cass Report is not really relevant in this discussion as it is concerned with healthcare provision for children and young people (under the age of 18) with possible gender dysphoria.

The NHS website clearly states that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but having gender dysphoria can lead to mental health challenges. I'd say the latter is most likely a result of the constant vitriol that trans people are exposed to.

It's worth noting that Amnesty International have put out a statement noting that the Cass Report is being weaponised by anti-trans groups.

I have only skimmed reviews of the report but I feel inspired to sit down and read all 400 pages of it now, and follow up on these claims of yours about 'every reputable current affairs and medical journal' that support this 'classic mental health issue' definition. With the exception of the BMJ, could you please provide me with the names of these highly rated publications? The faster I get reading, the sooner we can revisit this. I'm sure you appreciate healthy discourse?
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New Statesman, Economist, New York Times. Even the BBC. Not the Guardian. Hanna Barnes (ex Newsnight) has written a book about Tavistock. It’s pretty shocking stuff. A lot of young people have been seriously abused. Instead of getting talking therapy they were being medicalised.

You could try all 400 pages of the Cass review. She has commissioned a lot of work (mainly York uni I think).

The thing about middle class hysteria didn’t come from me, it’s from clinicians. It is overwhelmingly a certain demographic. Now that people are less scared, a lot more work is being done and papers published.

It is def going to court and I think a lot of parents are going to have face being duped. One of the worst claims was this thing about kids killing themselves - it is completely untrue.
 
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Fjell said:
.One of the worst claims was this thing about kids killing themselves - it is completely untrue.
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Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons - PMC

Suicide rate and suicidal tendencies among transgender persons are considerably high compared to general population. Hence, this review is an attempt to understand the issues around the suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Except is is true.
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Between a third and half of transgender persons attempt suicide because of a hateful society. The study shows that it’s higher amongst younger trans people across the world. So how about you save some lives and stop spouting such ignorant waffle.

A society that pressures anyone to attempt suicide has failed as a society. Build a better one, or die with the old one.
 
CASS: So how do we know if this is down to the gender-related distress? Or is it because they also have an eating disorder, or they're depressed or a whole raft of other issues? And because a majority of these young people have all of these issues, then what you need to do is compare to what the population rates are of suicidality in young people who have all of those other issues, but are not gender questioning.

And that's where you find that the rates are fairly comparable. So we can't say that it is the gender questioning or the gender incongruence that's giving you additional suicide risk. And so the second part is, does the gender-affirming treatment pathway reduce that suicidality? But such data as we have shows that we can't detect a difference in the suicide rates before and after treatment.
 
The fundamental flaw has been treating gender as being somehow a standalone issue with kids with a raft of big problems. A pill was easier than years of therapy. Not exactly a new issue in the UK. You can start with the massive abuse of anti-depressants.

I once watched a conference on detransition. The bit that got me was all agreed it had been a crock of shit, but pretty much all of them agreed without a pause that what it was all about now was ADHD. You get the idea.

I’m being kind here, because there is pile of documents and interviews which make it clear that clinicians colluded in “transing” gay kids at the request of parents who didn’t want a gay kid. Many of them were very open about it. I have a lot of respect for Cass not losing it in public, but I think she is very angry. It wasn’t what she expected to find in a major NHS trust.
 
And finally before I get cancelled…..

Historically and globally by far the biggest group of men who you would recognise as trans are gay men in a feminine and/or submissive role. I’ve met a fair few and worked with a bunch when I was young and less ugly - they were were very attentive and you had to be firm as they say. The overwhelming majority have no problems with their view of themselves. Then you get the small group who can’t accept their situation and end up with some form of internalised homophobia, I think I know a few if them too and they tend to be the ones with problems. All of this I get.

What I don’t get is clearly heterosexual men who say they are trans and demand access to women‘s stuff. Often very loudly. Is that really about anything but sex? I remain to be convinced.
 
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