Cultural History of Gender

[Tim Pickering]

And finally before I get cancelled…..

Historically and globally by far the biggest group of men who you would recognise as trans are gay men in a feminine and/or submissive role. I’ve met a fair few and worked with a bunch when I was young and less ugly - they were were very attentive and you had to be firm as they say. The overwhelming majority have no problems with their view of themselves. Then you get the small group who can’t accept their situation and end up with some form of internalised homophobia, I think I know a few if them too and they tend to be the ones with problems. All of this I get.

What I don’t get is clearly heterosexual men who say they are trans and demand access to women‘s stuff. Often very loudly. Is that really about anything but sex? I remain to be convinced.

You should have probably left this last post out. I thought you were concerned about the welfare of young people, who may or may not be trans, getting the correct treatment, which is certainly worthy of discussion but you've just trotted out this tired, old line about straight men putting on frocks to access womens stuff. Classic TERF rhetoric straight out of their handbook with no basis in reality, and beyond ridiculous!

On one hand you've been lamenting the countless lives that have been ruined through medical transition and in the next breath you're suggesting straight men transition to women to gain access to womens stuff. Who, on god's green earth, would risk that level of personal harm in order to assault women in toilets (I'm assuming that's what you mean by your reference to sex)? The reason you don't get it is because it defies logic. It simply doesn't happen. A man who wants to assualt a woman, will assault a woman regardless without going to such great lengths.

If, by being cancelled, you mean folk aren't willing to engage with you any more, then yeah, that's a possibility but it's not because you're speaking the truth or your viewpoint is edgy, controversial, whatever. It's because you've just come out with this wholly ridiculous post which doesn't merit the time and energy of a considered response.

 

[hartfield_estate]

None of what fjell has said is conductive to a real productive discussion (and fjells refusal to look past their very, very limited frame of reference is self admitted by phrases like "before I get cancelled!1!") and all it is doing is dogwhistling every piece of anti-trans propaganda fjell has consumed. These so called cis men invading women's spaces are a fictitious fear mongering tactic and also, just were not the point of this discussion. Nuanced views of gender are not a recent fad which you can very easily find out for yourself by removing your head from your hindside and reading a book rather than your terfy pseudo scientific gossip mags, and you are NOT protecting anyone by spreading false fears and hatred, you are just setting back the small process we have made since white western colonisation destroyed the many cultures that honoured third genders and other non patriarchal family structures and identities

 

[speleokitty3]

Someone on here has been reading too much sensationalist journalism and thinks that makes them qualified to talk about something that they clearly know little about.

Maybe they should count to ten before going on another rant and talking about being cancelled. Some people on this forum know a lot more about this subject than you do but won't get involved in pointless debate with bigots.

I've never known cavers who care anything about who they get changed in front of or what's inside their oversuit. Get over it.

 

[Badlad]

Sorry all. I take pride in all my friends, but locking this thread for everyone's sake.