Damage to caves in the Dales

[Simon Wilson]

This was off topic on the thread it was on.

Balch Cave is not on access land.

It could be gated and remain unaffected by any changes to the interpretation of CROW.

The damage is caused by idiots, not a campaign for changes to the intrerpretation of CROW.

There are clearly a lot of idiots in Yorkshire where CRoW access is more significant.  I cannot believe some of the wanton damage I have seen when I have visited caves up north.  I am concerned that allowing any old bod to wander down a cave up there will just make things worse than they are already. Yes, it would be nice to just go anywhere but it is unlikely to happen. Hang gliders never got things altered and I can remember similar arguments over this back in the late 70's.

Please say exactly in which caves you have seen wanton damage and what the damage was. How much caving have you done in the North? Have you got off the beaten track very much?

One of the most popular caves is Lost Johns'. That is a cave almost entirely devoid of calcite. The worst damage I can think of is rope grooves worn onto the pitch heads. Maybe you will disagree but I think the importance of that damage is insignificant. It has no effect on cave biology and it's only effect is aesthetic. I quite like it aesthetically; it reminds me of the heritage of caving. There are even a few old wooden ladder rungs to be found in Lost Johns' which I think are interesting artifacts and I always leave them.

I was rather thinking of calcite, mud floors etc. Examples are Gaping Gill (and that was on a recent visit and off the beaten track), Easegill (Colonnades are a good example), Committee Pot (there seems be mud where doesn't have to be) and other sites that other cavers I am sure will know off. Sometimes cave descriptions blatantly encourage potential damage. I recall visiting Illusion and before it reading a description of a way to view formations that was inviting damage. We cannot protect all these caves but one has to ask whether there is just more traffic in the northern systems or people don't get educated about cave conservation.

None of the caves you mentioned are off the beaten track. I would consider Committee Pot and Gaping Gill to be two of the most busy honeypot sites. The Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority has a honeypot policy and I think that policy extends to the caves.

I have no idea of the number of visitors that Gaping Gill gets but I'm sure CPC and BPC would tell you that hundreds of people have their first caving experience there every year. I think it is definitely worth sacrificing Gaping Gill for the benefits of enabling people to experience caving that would not experience it if it was less easily accessible.

I would agree if you said that people very much undervalue mud floors but I think the answer is education.

If you want to get off the beaten track and see some less damaged caves in the Dales I would be happy to show you a few.

 

[Simon Wilson]

one has to ask whether ... people don't get educated about cave conservation.

It would be good to know that CNCC region clubs provide conservation induction information to new members, or host conservation presentations or training. Certainly there are some excellent clean-up maestros and so I'm guessing there is a vibrant conservation ethos.

When I was a novice with BCC over forty years ago I was taken to the Collonades as an education exercise. I think it must be the number one site used as an example of damage to formations. I don't know what clubs do but I would hope they make some effort on conservation education. The CNCC are changing and I think conservation is becoming more important.

 

[cavermark]

Were the damaged areas taped?

There seems to be less taping in the Dales which could be factor as much as access arrangements.

I'm not necessarily advocating more taping - just considering what factors are involved. Some areas were trampled before taping was commonplace and some areas can't be taped effectively anyway.

 

[Pitlamp]

I'm with you 100% there Simon when you flagged up the value of caver education. It should be THE starting point for any new participant's initiation, before even going underground. Get that right and many of the potential problems of the future would evaporate.

 

[cavermark]

Completely agree Pitlamp.
A club environment is a good starting point for this. I wonder if a public information campaign is also required, alongside the CRoW campaign, to try and inform people who might start venturing underground outside of the club system?

 

[steviet_scg]

I wonder if a public information campaign is also required, alongside the CRoW campaign, to try and inform people who might start venturing underground outside of the club system?

We can't do that - it'd be against item 4.8 of the BCA constitution 

 

[cavermark]

 

[Simon Wilson]

Completely agree Pitlamp.
A club environment is a good starting point for this. I wonder if a public information campaign is also required, alongside the CRoW campaign, to try and inform people who might start venturing underground outside of the club system?

Haven't you noticed that is what is being done? What you are saying has been at the heart of discussions about CRoW all along. Tim Allen has been putting a lot of effort into that side of things. He has personally been responsible for a lot of conservation work over the past few years.

 

[droid]

Haven't you noticed that is what is being done? What you are saying has been at the heart of discussions about CRoW all along.

No it hasn't.

The failings of the CNCC, gates and landowners, yes. Conservation: mentioned in passing.

I don't doubt your comment RE Tim, but the rest of that statement is wrong. At least regarding the discussions here.

In fact, whenever the CRoW-cautious lobby has brought the subject up, it's been dismissed out of hand.

 

[cavermark]

It was a suggestion to try answer some of the concerns raised about the implications of the CRoW campaign.
IF the general public entering caves and causing damage is thought to be a signuficant enough problem.
If it is thought to be an issue, then by a PUBLIC info campaign, I mean something outside of this forum - maybe updating the "try caving" leaflets in tourist information/gift shops in caving areas or adding footnotes to the media coverage along the lines of "if you are considering trying caving visit this website" (probably BCA where it would suggest contacting local clubs etc., but also have some guidelines about not touching formations etc. for those that want to rush straight in). Basically an attempt to catch people who might venture into caves unaware or uninterested in caving clubs or formal instruction.
I am in no way dismissing Tim's efforts - I thought this would be slightly different and additional to what he has been doing.

 

[mrodoc]

Some people don't agree regarding GG but they only way they can protect passage is by concealing it. I visited an area a couple of years ago that you couldn't tape as the formations were halfway up a wall - very nice they once were but are now covered in hurled mud splats. Is this what is meant by sacrificial cave?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Are there any caves in Somerset off the beaten track? If Dales systems get damaged due to being easy to find and enter, then look at Somerset where those caves which have survived remarkably well tend to be those that have been afforded a degree of artificial protection, even though they are not difficult to get to. There's a lot can be learnt from the precedent.

 

[badger]

even on leader lead trips due to conservation concerns you find people have put a hand on, stepped over, or generally somehow managed to ignore the leader.
obviously gating a cave does not work either as seen in HLIS
so the only way for conservation to truly work is for cavers not to go caving,
drink beer instead

 

[Peter Burgess]

Both St Cuths and Reservoir are well worth visiting even decades after discovery. I imagine there would be far less to see had they had free and open access from the day they were opened up. People say education is the answer. Yes, they are right. Be educated by what works. And so as not no be off-topic - be educated in the Dales as well 

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Both St Cuths and Reservoir are well worth visiting even decades after discovery. I imagine there would be far less to see had they had free and open access from the day they were opened up. People say education is the answer. Yes, they are right. Be educated by what works. And so as not no be off-topic - be educated in the Dales as well 

Hi Peter,
By 'free and open access' do you mean just turning up and doing it, turning up and asking permission, booking and turning up - presumably not getting a key to a gated cave (none of which I can think of offhand apply in the Dales).

 

[cap n chris]

even on leader lead trips due to conservation concerns you find people have put a hand on, stepped over, or generally somehow managed to ignore the leader.
obviously gating a cave does not work either as seen in HLIS
so the only way for conservation to truly work is for cavers not to go caving,
drink beer instead

Sounds like poor leadership. Gating combined with a warden does work. Really well.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

Caves in the Dales tend to be quite resilient and free of any significant damage. In most caves the worst damage is litter and the placing of anchors and we are working hard on those two issues. Damage to formations does not happen and cannot happen in many, if not most, Dales caves because there aren't any formations. There is very extensive damage to formations in a few places such as most of the popular routes in the two largest systems that have been mentioned.

Long Churn which is probably the single most visited cave in the Dales has little damage. The few formations that there are have been very badly damaged over a hundred years ago. When I worked as an instructor taking mainly young people into that cave all the instructors used to make a point of highlighting the damage as an example of what can happen.

Apart from the obvious damage of quarrying, by far the most serious damage to caves in the Dales is in the show caves namely White Scar, Ingleborough and Stump Cross. I think most people accept that damage is worth the sacrifice for the sake of the benefits. The same idea extends to certain popular and easily accessible caves such as Gaping Gill.

mrodoc appears to be suggesting that Gaping Gill should be gated in order to protect the formations. Gating all the entrances to Gaping Gill would cost at least several hundred thousand pounds if not over a million to construct. It would need planning permission that you would never get and it would need SSSI permission which you would never get.

 

[Simon Wilson]

even on leader lead trips due to conservation concerns you find people have put a hand on, stepped over, or generally somehow managed to ignore the leader.
obviously gating a cave does not work either as seen in HLIS
so the only way for conservation to truly work is for cavers not to go caving,
drink beer instead

Sounds like poor leadership. Gating combined with a warden does work. Really well.

But it could never work in the Dales. There are far too many caves for a start. You would need to get SSSI permission for most caves and you would be very unlikely to get that because the gate would be the worst damage. The first gate would immediately be destroyed by cavers who have a very strong anti-gate ethos.

 

[badger]

think what I was trying to say is we can work, educate, put systems in place, but the very fact that cavers cave, each time they are altering the cave in some small/large way and the only true way of 100% conservation is not to go there in the first place.
Simon is right as much as I don't like the words sacrificial some caves due to the vast numbers of cavers will suffer more than others, its an unfortunate fact, gate or no gate.

 

[droid]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

In which case you haven't been paying attention.

restrictions on which paths you can use have occurred in the Peak District (Stanage, Kinder) and the Lakes (Scafell) from memory.....