Damage to caves in the Dales

[Peter Burgess]

The idea of "not going there in the first place" is quite a good thought to carry with you when you do go there. If it's in your mind simply that your presence is a risk to the environment, it should make you as careful as you need to be without really thinking about it. What's more, that approach might even be infectious so others pick up on it as well.

 

[David Rose]

I'm surprised that Mrdoc mentions Notts 2 (Committee Pot). This does have some superb formations in the streamway, which have remained in pristine condition. Most of the formations in Easegill have also been preserved effectively.

 

[mrodoc]

There is mud on a fair number of formations in Committee Pot and Easter Grotto is a mess. The trouble is people don't realise what they have lost unless they visit a cave over a number of years. There were some lovely and delicate formations in Otter Hole extension when I first went in there in 1976 but a number were rapidly destroyed and others covered in mud. Yes, the cave still looks nice but not like it did originally.  Current conservation tends to focus on creating paths through vulnerable sections of cave and, yes, I don't like the look of tapes either but at least they help to keep people off stuff - although you cannot prevent idiots hurling mud.

 

[David Rose]

Easter Grotto has suffered, I agree. But there are many other areas of the system with fantastic formations that haven't at all. What are you arguing for here? If it's education and taping, where appropriate, there is no dispute. If it's closing caves or restricting access to them severely, then there is. 

 

[droid]

As I see it they can be complimentary. Closing/restricting caves is short term, education is long term.

Neither is a 100% guarantee of no damage but maybe together they could work?

Specifically vetoing either approach is not the way forward IMHO

 

[paul]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

In which case you haven't been paying attention.

restrictions on which paths you can use have occurred in the Peak District (Stanage, Kinder) and the Lakes (Scafell) from memory.....

Re restriction in the Peak: I think you are confusing restrictions placed on off-road vehicles placed on certain routes such as Chapel Gate and Long Causeway. There are no restrictions on paths for walking on Kinder Scout or Stanage (although Access land may be closed in certain areas for reasons of land management, public safety, fire prevention or conservation for a period of time).

 

[Alex]

I will veto any gate (locked) placed on an existing cave in the Dales, I would want veto it with something heavy. New caves found are a different matter, that is entirely up to the explorers/land owners discretion, as already stated, though I would be disappointed if they are gated. Digs are not covered by CRoW.

As for damage to Dales caves, there has been some (The calcite formations in the flood bypass route in Notts 2 has become very muddy when compared to my first visit, also there is some mud graffiti) but I also see the same damage in Mendip. Thankfully the caves in the Dales that do have pristine fantastic formations, tend to be at the bottom of or at least half way down a grade 5 cave. People won't damage these as it is privilege to make it there, why damage something that you worked so hard to get to and see? Thustly the caves in the Dales are protected with open access and are absolutely pristene. Also the weather keeps us out of most of these caves anyway, we don't need this additional restriction, for these lesser visited grade 5 fantastic places.

This is in the Dales for example, though its not that difficult to get to. Photo credit, Daniel Jackson

 

[grahams]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

In which case you haven't been paying attention.

restrictions on which paths you can use have occurred in the Peak District (Stanage, Kinder) and the Lakes (Scafell) from memory.....

Re restriction in the Peak: I think you are confusing restrictions placed on off-road vehicles placed on certain routes such as Chapel Gate and Long Causeway. There are no restrictions on paths for walking on Kinder Scout or Stanage (although Access land may be closed in certain areas for reasons of land management, public safety, fire prevention or conservation for a period of time).

Droid is at least partially correct Paul. The path on the western side of Stickle Gill in Langdale for example, was closed many years ago to allow the scree to stabilise and for vegetation to recover. If I remember correctly, signage of the closure was present for a while where it diverges from the path up the east side of the stream. The Dore Head path in Wasdale was closed for the same reason. These paths do not show as rights of way on current OS maps. As far as I know, the path restrictions were not enshrined in law as for off-road vehicles, rather as encouragement to use the RoW.

 

[bograt]

Here we go again with the geography thing!, neither Langdale nor Wasdale are in the Peak District -----.

 

[grahams]

Here we go again with the geography thing!, neither Langdale nor Wasdale are in the Peak District -----.

Last time I looked, Scafell as referenced by another poster, was somewhere near Langdale and Wasdale. Maybe somebody has moved it southish.

 

[droid]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

In which case you haven't been paying attention.

restrictions on which paths you can use have occurred in the Peak District (Stanage, Kinder) and the Lakes (Scafell) from memory.....

Re restriction in the Peak: I think you are confusing restrictions placed on off-road vehicles placed on certain routes such as Chapel Gate and Long Causeway. There are no restrictions on paths for walking on Kinder Scout or Stanage (although Access land may be closed in certain areas for reasons of land management, public safety, fire prevention or conservation for a period of time).

There were restrictions placed on both areas due to footpath erosion. The restrictions were to allow the footpaths to be repaired/regenerate herbage.

 

[droid]

Walkers do a lot of damage to mountains but I have never heard anybody say that people should be prevented from mountain walking.

In which case you haven't been paying attention.

restrictions on which paths you can use have occurred in the Peak District (Stanage, Kinder) and the Lakes (Scafell) from memory.....

Re restriction in the Peak: I think you are confusing restrictions placed on off-road vehicles placed on certain routes such as Chapel Gate and Long Causeway. There are no restrictions on paths for walking on Kinder Scout or Stanage (although Access land may be closed in certain areas for reasons of land management, public safety, fire prevention or conservation for a period of time).

There were restrictions placed on both areas due to footpath erosion. The restrictions were to allow the footpaths to be repaired/regenerate vegetation.

 

[badger]

the BCA is supporting a campaign for footpath maintance in our national parks, especially some of which fall close to caves/mines