Electron Ladders and Safety

[Blakethwaite]

...but they 'appear' in very good condition.

Anyone who buys safety critical kit from eBay is looking for a stomping.

Wouldn't disagree with you in the slightest on that point however to split hairs... I was told, perhaps erroneously, that electrons shouldn't be viewed as being safety critical/PPE/whatever and that they should be expected to fail hence the need for competent life-lining.

I bought a set of eBay about five years ago as it happens and they are still going strong despite having spades, trees, rocks & god knows what dropped on them at various points.


[gmod]This and following postings have been split from the "Has anyone got caving ladders for sale?" topic in the For Sale section[/gmod]

 

[bograt]

TSG used to have a ladder testing rig, don't know if its still there?.

 

[Benfool]

fairly sure we dont have it anymore. Dont think we even have any ladders!

 

[Andrew W]

Whilst not disputing Graham's point, I'm not sure that a ladder bought off ebay that appears to be in good condition would be any less trustworthy than a club ladder that appears to be in good condition. I wonder how many of us would be overly concerned about using a club ladder.

 

[cap n chris]

Ladders are not trustworthy.

Therefore you can use them no matter what condition they are in and no matter where they came from.

Provided you're also using a life line.

A nicety is also to have a strategy to ascend in the event of failure. Fallback strategy is to wait for the callout, though, I guess.

 

[bograt]

In my experience, a rigorous visual inspection is usually a good indicator of the safety of a used ladder, check for slipped rungs, slipped crimps, strained connectors (C-links or whatever) and corrosion on the wires, especially where the rungs are attached, try kinking the wire at suspect points and see (or feel) if any threads break, and ALWAYS use a lifeline.

I admit I am not conversant with modern ladders but back in the day I was with TSG when they made, tested and sold ladders to a lot of the clubs in the country, and we were duty bound to keep abreast of every problem that arose with ladders back in the pre - SRT days, more info available on request.

 

[skippy]

I had a discussion with somebody in CPC regarding the integrity of ladders and especially the 'C' links....this being potentially a weak point of the ladder.
The conversation then turned to how the C links fared when the infamous CPC/ULSA  laddering of Titan stunt went....apparently it was in the back of the climbers minds but they were SRT self lining.


Hmm...I wonder if the ladders used on the top section are still in our stores :-\

 

[bograt]

Ladders are not trustworthy.

Therefore you can use them no matter what condition they are in and no matter where they came from.

Provided you're also using a life line.

A nicety is also to have a strategy to ascend in the event of failure. Fallback strategy is to wait for the callout, though, I guess.

Horses for courses, I can't imagine a trip of 12+ novices doing (for instance) the Eyam Dale through trip (Gin Entrance to Eyam Dale Shaft) on SRT, far easier to ladder the shaft. Lifeline essential, its easier to show someone how to climb a ladder than it is to tackle them up and teach them SRT.
I always carried a couple of slings of the relevant size ("Daiper" sit sling and chest sling) and a couple of bits of "string" to manufacture prussik loops, also a couple of crabs to abseil on, all eventualities covered, lightweight caving!, I never had to use them except in practice. The only ladder "failure" I had to contend with was one "manufactured" by Dave Edwards (RIP) for practice purposes.
Check your tackle before using it and be prepared.

In my opinion and experience pitches up to about 35ft - ladders; over that, maybe SRT, don't expose novices to SRT, if they get to that stage they become probationers, but not on their first trip!

As for Titan on ladders, reminds me of a report I read about a visit to G.G. on Rope and Wood, I wonder if a rope & wood knot is stronger than a C-link ??

 

[chrisporcheret]

It amazing how asking if anyone has something for sale turns in to a discussion. 

 

[bograt]

It amazing how asking if anyone has something for sale turns in to a discussion.

Dats wot appens ere, Chris!!

(Until its "modified" to a different thread  )

 

[skippy]

Question is....did you bid for the ladders???

 

[Fulk]

Skippy quote:

Hmm...I wonder if the ladders used on the top section are still in our stores

Are you implying by this that you think that the ladders used at the top would be more suspect than those at the bottom (on account of the extra weight they had to hold?)? It does not strike me a being very plausible.

In fact, during my years climbing ladders and time with CRO I never thought that ladder failure was very likely to happen (though I have, indeed, seen the consequences of it; I figure that well-made ladders are reasonably sound, nevertheless I wouldn't climb them without a lifeline, just on the off-chance . . . ).

 

[skippy]

It wasn't a serious discussion regarding the stresses or forces applied to the C links it was just a general musing between a few of us in the pub....Like you say bar the odd anecdotal tale I doubt there has ever been a recorded incident of ladder failure.

Having said that I did come across this a few years ago:-

Hey Chris..its yours for 20 quid 

 

[Fulk]

I didn't say anything about anecdotal tales; I do know that there have been ladder failures.

 

[Clive G]

So, try here:  http://www.upandunder.co.uk/Outdoor/Caving/Ladders/

Or here:  http://www.caving-supplies.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdSrch.cgi?mode=user&transid=~transid~&source=shopFolder&search_text=Ladder&formCategory=Wire+Ladders&formBrand=All&search=Search

&c.

 

[Alex]

Aye they do definitely fail see http://www.uwfra.org.uk/CalloutsHistoric - 2009 - Saturday 25th of July.

 

[bograt]

It wasn't a serious discussion regarding the stresses or forces applied to the C links it was just a general musing between a few of us in the pub....Like you say bar the odd anecdotal tale I doubt there has ever been a recorded incident of ladder failure.

Having said that I did come across this a few years ago:-

Hey Chris..its yours for 20 quid 

Hmm, I think that would fail my visual test !!.

 

[Blakethwaite]

Nah, bit of WD40 and a few cable ties and they'll be as right as rain...

 

[Clive G]

No, the problem with that ladder is he hasn't bothered to wind the rungs up neatly, so it looks a mess.

A decent coiling-up job and then use a can of silver-colour spray paint to bring up the reddy-brown bits a treat. The buyer will never know the difference. Try asking ?35 or he/she might suspect there's a problem. But, make sure you sell it from a PO Box No. (or eBay) and then close the account once the transaction is done. I think you then say, "Job's a good 'un."

 

[bograt]

Or, as we used to identify them;

Pencil rung, pin and resin fixed, string bound electron wire.

The only problem with these ladders was the quality of the wires, they had a string core that held moisture and corroded the rest of it. I never trusted a "pencil rung" but I never heard of one failing.
It was always the wire that condemned the ladder.