Fairy Holes - Weardale

[Les W]

Unfortunately covering an entrance that was opened up by quarrying would be seen as protecting an SSSI,

Not necessarily. Blocking an entrance could quite easily be a PDO and permission to do so would need Natural England's consent. Without their consent it would be a criminal offence...

whilst trespassing is an offence,

As has already been stated, trespassing is generally a civil offence.

 

[graham]

Blocking an entrance could quite easily be a PDO and permission to do so would need Natural England's consent. Without their consent it would be a criminal offence...

Two things: Firstly I'm sure I've just seen a recent photograph of the entrance. Didn't seem that blocked to me, Ok from an anthropocentric POV it might appear that way, but not to invertebrates or the local chiropterae.

Secondly, has it occurred to anyone that the quarry owners could easily have taken Natural England's advice on the matter of protecting their property from marauding trespassers without breaching any of the relevant PDO's. It is perfectly possible that they got authority to vary a PDO for this very reason. I don't know, I haven't asked, but I do know that the relevant guy in Somerset once told me that half his job consisted of drafting and signing such authorisations.

 

[dunc]

Unfortunately covering an entrance that was opened up by quarrying would be seen as protecting an SSSI, whilst trespassing is an offence, I suggest you remove this thread & talk to the CNCC...

I thought the cave was accessible before the quarry, if I have my information correct, then when was the cave designated as SSSI and was the ~600m section of cave quarried away after this date?

Apparently the cave was in good condition in 2008, no surprise there then.

I would contact the CNCC but, should I have to, they have a website that they can disseminate information on - a simple note saying access was under negotiation or has failed and site is completely closed etc, doesn't take much effort..

 

[Glenn]

I don't know why the OP chose to discuss this issue in a public forum when he is very aware that CNCC have the correct person on board to look into this. But I can assure you that CNCC is on the case.

 

[Alex]

Nout will happen as useual (in our life times) and it seems again if you want access the only way is to pirate the trip (with a bulldozer in this case) sorry about being so synical but just look at Mossdale for example no one has been officially allowed in there for over 40 years. Millwall tunnel thats another fine place that I have never visited and has been closed, access would not likely be given in our life times again.

/sigh.

 

[IanWalker]

i sense that some people have a notion that if access discussions do not (or have not yet) gain access for the caving community then somehow it becomes fair game to trespass and enter caves without permission.

if the owner refuses to allow access for the rest of his life that's his choice. and yes alex, that may mean the only other option for getting in the cave is to trespass - does that make it okay?

got a cave in your back garden? i want to see it. what's that, you won't let me in? what if the regional representative body asks? still no access? okay then should i let myself into your place anyway and go wherever i damn well please?

not on.

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several people are responding to the SSSI element but the OP doesn't mention this at all, though posts in other threads have had a conservation theme. then again he doesn't mention access - just "Not sure what, if anything, can be done".

done about what?

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and again to the OP what is the 'damage done'?? as far as i can tell from your description and photos the only change is that something has appeared in front of the entrance and there is no change to the cave entrance or passage of any form.

 

[Blakethwaite]

To be fair I think most people would see a difference between a disused quarry and the back garden of old Granny Smith's bungalow.

Bar a very small number of localised exceptions legitimate access  to the vast amount of underground spread across the three North Peninne counties does not exist and the long-established tradition is to just get on with it and don't make a song & dance about it. And don't get caught.

 

[graham]

i sense that some people have a notion that if access discussions do not (or have not yet) gain access for the caving community then somehow it becomes fair game to trespass and enter caves without permission.

Indeed, because quite a few cavers seem to have what the dear lady wife describes as a sense of entitlement a mile wide.

 

[IanWalker]

To be fair I think most people would see a difference between a disused quarry and the back garden of old Granny Smith's bungalow.

i think from the actions of the quarry owners we can assume that they don't see the difference.

 

[Alex]

Making the comparison to someones back garden and a plot of land not doing anything a mile accross is like comparing the pope to an athiest, they are not alike but are both human. So it really annoys me when people use that analysis. Incidently anyone can have access to my backgarden as there is a public gynal that connects mine to everyone elses and then onto the street, so everyone already has access.

So Marsyboy would you like to go back to the days before the mass tresspass and not be able to walk the fells etc because the landlord does not allow access. Is this not the same thing. If only we had the numbers or the inclination to do the same thing for caving.

 

[graham]

Making the comparison to someone's back garden and a plot of land not doing anything a mile across is like comparing the pope to an atheist, they are not alike but are both human.

They are alike in the very important sense that neither of them belong to you.

 

[Alex]

Well nothing belongs to me so, am I not allowed to stap outside my house, I don;t own the street, the village, the country? Sorry try better.

 

[graham]

Well nothing belongs to me so, am I not allowed to stap outside my house, I don;t own the street, the village, the country? Sorry try better.

Oh dear, now you are getting silly. The Queen (Gawd Bless 'er) has granted you permission to step outside your house onto certain designated parts of her property, many of which are known as public highways. But given your attitude, I can quite understand why the quarry owners do not take the same view as her maj.

 

[graham]

One can regard highways, byways and  right to roam moorland as being a bit like Creative Commons licensed access. There are, however, no Creative Commons caves except, possibly for those sea caves which open from those bits of the foreshore (all Crown Property) which have been licensed for public access.

 

[Alex]

Oh yes, what attitude is that then? I have made no attempt to trespass, but as I said orignally I understand why people do. If people were reasonable in the first place then people would not tresspass.

All I said was comparing someones garden to a large plot of land not doing anything and not in use is not a like for like comparisment and if it was people would be allowed access to the quarry in the example provided as they can get into my back garden lol.

However , no Creative Commons caves

I asked this before a while back, why not?

 

[graham]

Oh yes, what attitude is that then? I have made no attempt to trespass, but as I said originally I understand why people do. If people were reasonable in the first place then people would not tresspass.

That attitude, that one right there which says that you understand those who do.

I just love this definition of reasonable. It translates, broadly, as if you don't let me do what I want I'll do it anyway and screw you. That's actually fucking unreasonable.

All I said was comparing someone's garden to a large plot of land not doing anything and not in use is not a like for like comparison and if it was people would be allowed access to the quarry in the example provided as they can get into my back garden lol.

What right have you to decide whether the land is doing anything or not? It's not yours. If you want unfettered access to it then buy it. If it's not doing anything then I'm sure they'd be glad to sell it to you.

However , no Creative Commons caves

I asked this before a while back, why not?

Because the legislation does not allow for this. Why?  Because the cavers whose advice was taken are rather more sensible and thoughtful than most, saw the pitfalls and decided that avoiding them was better than losing access to a lot of caves and dig sites.

 

[Brains]

In a reasoned debate in the wider community I can see merit in many of the arguments, but on a forum dedicated to cavers and caving I would hope for less polarisation in attitude and the seeking of a potential way forward that would allow access. We know many of the establishment arguments for keeping us out, but where is the effort to gain access to otherwise off limits locations?
Unfetterd access would be a goal to work towards, but access also includes gates, management committes, permits, keys, time limitations, empire building "little Hitlers" etc as well as conservation rational.
Playing devils advocate is one thing, but seeking to shut down all debate on the basis of thats the way it is in law is hardly helpful to the longer term desires of the caving community. Laws can and do change, and surprisingly, with a lot of help, so can some attitudes!

 

[dunc]

I don't know why the OP chose to discuss this issue in a public forum when he is very aware that CNCC have the correct person on board to look into this. But I can assure you that CNCC is on the case.

Thank you Glenn, I thought it might well have been the case, but wasn't sure.

As for the access debate, pah, not getting involved, I've said my piece and can't see reason to argue ad infinitum, besides I've got some caving to be getting on with shortly. Have fun and all that.

 

[graham]

In a reasoned debate in the wider community I can see merit in many of the arguments, but on a forum dedicated to cavers and caving I would hope for less polarisation in attitude and the seeking of a potential way forward that would allow access. We know many of the establishment arguments for keeping us out, but where is the effort to gain access to otherwise off limits locations?

One of the access arrangements that I am involved in had me building and maintaining cordial relations with the landowner involved over a period of seven years from my first contact with them. That allowed a cave that had, at that point, been closed for over 30 years to be reopened.

The effort is there and is being made. Quietly. By many cavers. What sets these negotiations back are the antics of those with a sense of entitlement who trespass, get found out and set back the negotiations sometimes for years.

 

[bog4053]

It is clearly a matter for CNCC and Natural England but it should be in a public forum in any case as there are a range of important issues that need airing more widely.  Comments on trespass are an unhelpful distraction and might be better placed in a new topic.  This topic is about access and conservation.  Has Fairy Holes come up in CNCC meetings?  I'm sure it will now if it hasn't already.