Fairy Holes - Weardale

[TheBitterEnd]

Personally I quite like these little tiffs and those who say "we've discussed this before" just want us to miss out on the fun.

The "access to your back garden" argument is entirely specious and those putting it up know it. The arguments for access that lead to formation of the National Parks etc. recognized a distinction between Cultivated and Uncultivated land. Why should access to uncultivated land and caves under them be restricted? Also some one is bound to mention digging as a reason why we can't have open access to caves. But the right to roam does not confer a right to dig, for example a metal detectorist has no right to dig on open access land even though they can walk across it with a metal detector.

The real concern for land owners of course is liability and this is where the excellent work of the likes of the CNCC in managing access through permits for insured cavers helps balance land owner concerns with our desire to cave. But then Right to Roam reduced landowners liability...

 

[graham]

Also some one is bound to mention digging as a reason why we can't have open access to caves. But the right to roam does not confer a right to dig ...

No, it doesn't, but if the then dug cave can be accessed "by right" then any time a landowner grants permission to dig he is potentially accepting a future right of access to his land. I rather suspect that few landowners will grant digging permission under that circumstance, what do you think?

 

[IanWalker]

i grew up on a farm and saw it all as one big garden. i do not think it is a 'specious' argument. i think comments on trespass are inseparable from the topic of access.

i am all for access and conservation and would hope i am acting reasonably in waiting for someone to negotiate for access and deal with conservation issues for me. and whilst those kind souls are beavering away on my behalf i can be working my way through all those caves that are legitimately available.

but i don't see much that is reasonable in the attitude that leads to flagrant trespass and pirating.

 

[mikem]

HSE view on quarries & right to roam:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/quarries/country.htm

Note that although a quarry may not be being worked that does not mean it has been abandoned, there is a minimum requirement to maintain the quarrying licence & very few owners wish to lose the option of reopening a site if it becomes viable again.

Mike

 

[Alex]

I can tell I really pissed Graham off, when all I said is I understand, that does not mean I condone. I was trying to say that I understand why people do it becuase nothing seems to happen for many a years and seems to be forgot about until someone opens it all up and with posts like the priginal one. Perhaps the CNCC should produce progress reports in the leaflets they hand out. If people know that something is being done on thier behalf and access would be likely be in X time then they are heck of alot less likely to pirate the place. People would also appretiate what the CNCC are doign on our behalf if we knew what they were doing.

But if you don't people will pirate and as you say, will get caught and set it all back again but I "Understand" but NOT "condone" why people do!

My other argument was just based on that silly comparision between a back garden and a large patch of land owened by the landed gentry (the upper classes). As I thought this difference was made quite clear with that mass tresspass.

Anyway like Dunc can't be bothered arguing anymore as this thread is going exactly the same way as the one a couple years back did. I got better things to do.

 

[Alex]

P.s. I am not trying to bad mouth the CNCC we have it really qute good here and that is in part for thanks to the CNCC. They just need to get on top of releasing more information, they need to advertise them selfs and show what good work they are doing, so I don't get depressed into thinking "Well thats another cave I will never see in my lifetime".

 

[langcliffe]

But if you don't people will pirate and as you say, will get caught and set it all back again but I "Understand" but NOT "condone" why people do!

And yet in other posts you seem to be keen to let us know that you've been down certain caves on Great Whernside recently...

 

[damian]

Alex, just wondering when you are going to volunteer to be the CNCC Newsletter Editor (or BCA's for that matter, cos he's just stepped down)?

 

[Alex]

As far as I was led to belive those caves in question I think you are referring to are your allowed down there but not with official permission sort of thing to get out of liablity issues. As one landowner said to us who will remain nameless (in a different area). "You can go up there, but I have not seen you." sort of an affair.

Why is it when I put a suggestion forwards does that always mean that I should do it? Maybe when I retire from caving, Damian. It's certainly not for me all those CNCC meetings, you know I despise commitie meetings and the like. I am happy to more pysical work like I have recently done such as helping to fix entrances etc but save me from the meetings, I do enough that sort of stuff for a living! Other people would be better suited to that sort of thing, who well have more tact then I do.

 

[langcliffe]

As far as I was led to belive those caves in question I think you are referring to are your allowed down there but not with official permission sort of thing to get out of liablity issues.

Unfortunately, not the case.

P.s. I am not trying to bad mouth the CNCC we have it really qute good here and that is in part for thanks to the CNCC. They just need to get on top of releasing more information, they need to advertise them selfs and show what good work they are doing, so I don't get depressed into thinking "Well thats another cave I will never see in my lifetime".

Don't forget, they publish their minutes online, which is as good as sitting in on the meetings. It doesn't seem reasonable  to add to the work of the officers by asking to be spoon-fed information when we can get access to it with a couple of clicks,

 

[damian]

Why is it when I put a suggestion forwards does that always mean that I should do it?

Simple - because you always seem to suggest that "they" should do something. What you fail to grasp is that "they" are a very small number of people who already spend an inordinate amount of time working on your behalf. "They" could easily spend some of this time telling you what "they" are doing, but that would result in a lot less of the real work getting done. What it needs is someone like you to volunteer to trawl all the meeting minutes, websites etc and summarise the work that's done. That way the do'ers can do, and the non-do'ers can be happy beause they find out what's being done on their behalf.

 

[IanWalker]

I "Understand" but NOT "condone" why people do!

Good 

My other argument was just based on that silly comparision between a back garden and a large patch of land owened by the landed gentry (the upper classes).

Sadly this weakens your argument as I don't think the landed gentry and upper classes are involved in this one...

 

[Blakethwaite]

I "Understand" but NOT "condone" why people do!

Good 

My other argument was just based on that silly comparision between a back garden and a large patch of land owened by the landed gentry (the upper classes).

Sadly this weakens your argument as I don't think the landed gentry and upper classes are involved in this one...

Indeed. The local landed gentry at least have a pretence of an interest in the area in question however swayed it might be by protecting the interests of the idiot sons of cockney scrap dealers in comedy shootin' clothes. The multinational firm in question really couldn't give a flying duck about the area which is why all their plant will be weighed in by locals the moment the opportunity allows.

 

[Blakethwaite]

Actually, ignore that. The site is long since cleared. The principle sorta stands though...

 

[NigR]

Not sure what, if anything, can be done but this used to one of the best trips in the country.

Fear not, any blockage of any cave entrance can be cleared or bypassed given time, effort and commitment.

Some might just take a little bit longer than others!

An entrance can be blocked but the cave cannot be eradicated.

It is really all down to the strength of will on the part of those who are determined it should remain open.

 

[Alex]

Sorry Marysboy, I was referring in general rather than to this cave, but for all we know the owner of the quarry company could be a member of the landed gentry.

But back on topic, if negotions do fail, does the cave go under any other land of perhaps a kinder owner who may allow digging to make a new entrance or does the cave all go under the quarry. If not, how deep would the shallowest part be not on the quarries land? Remember a 40m+ shaft was dug to access Titan so this could be a genuine possibility. I would be willing to help with said digging project should that be a possiblity.

 

[langcliffe]

but for all we know the owner of the quarry company could be a member of the landed gentry.

Don't be daft - Lafarge is part of a huge conglomerate based in France. You can buy some shares if you want, and become one of the owners.

 

[langcliffe]

But back on topic, if negotions do fail, does the cave go under any other land of perhaps a kinder owner who may allow digging to make a new entrance or does the cave all go under the quarry. If not, how deep would the shallowest part be not on the quarries land? Remember a 40m+ shaft was dug to access Titan so this could be a genuine possibility. I would be willing to help with said digging project should that be a possiblity.

A more realistic project would possibly be to attempt to enter the cave from the sink area, some half a kilometre or so from the end of the explored cave. The YRC pushed a bedding plane passage at the sink for some distance, and also entered a level which was supposed to have crossed the line of the cave. The former got too tight, and the latter was seen to have been driven through some pretty poor ground, and they encountered a major rockfall.

There are also a number of mine shafts lying above the possible line of the first few hundred metres of the unexplored section of the cave, as well as a very large shakehole.

 

[bog4053]

Thank goodness that at last Langcliffe has brought some sense back into this topic and steered us away from all that silly nonsense about gardens.  However what Langcliffe suggests should not be necessary.  Below is an extract from Lafarge's Environment Report for 2010 which you can access on the Internet.  So what have Natural England and CNCC actually done?  I don't remember any discussion at CNCC and can't find any reference to Fairy Holes in CNCC minutes.  What is going on and why are we not in there legitimately?

In 2009 we carried out some work on the Fairy
Hole cave SSSi near our former Weardale Works
in County Durham. This work has included
making the cave entrance safe and agreeing
cave access rights with Natural England and the
Council for Northern Caving Clubs. In 2010 we
achieved one of our key biodiversity targets for
that year and a major milestone with the Fairy
Hole Caves SSSi ? through the work we have
done this area has moved from being classified
as ?partly destroyed? to ?favourable?.

 

[Alex]

Thank goodness that at last Langcliffe has brought some sense back into this topic and steered us away from all that silly nonsense about gardens

Hey, it was me who steered it back again after steering it away in the first place lol, but glad to see that gaining access via somewhere else is a possability.