GG winch meet ‘26 question

[Cantclimbtom]

What route would you recommend to a small group who has never been in this system? What is the easiest route? ( less tight passages). (Please do not offer to buy tickets )

Answering on the basis that all members of your group are capable to abseil down a rope and competently ascend up a rope (including a 30m pitch, other people will be waiting to use the rope)

Then Bar Pot is the simplest/easiest. It has 1 short pitch at the very start (no rebelay or deviation), a slither down over a greasy slab, 5m?? At 45 degrees with a handline. A second abseil pitch ~30m. Sone hands and knees crawling, some stooping, but no squeezes or tight crawls. A lot of walking, a couple of spots nearer the main chamber you may get your hands and knees wet but generally speaking no water. Popular for beginners. Sometimes the "big pitch" (the 30m one) has 2 ropes so more people can use the route. One route has a rebelay. In that case the first big pitch rope (from entrance) down a hole needs passing rebelaysor deviations, but the one out in the open from a balcony is probably just a straight rope top to bottom without any rebelay or deviation

But, fair warning: the very first 2 or 3 metres of the first pitch (or last 2 or 3m on the way out) is in a restricted slot. Anyone very big will have a problem, average size people there's enough room. Most people find it "Absolutely no problem, what's all the fuss about?" But for whatever reason some people have a total epic getting out.

Ascending the last 2 or 3m in a confined space seems to upset some people. I enjoy it and I'm not small and thin, but I did see someone get stuck for a while and he was pretty thin, not quite sure how, but it can happen.

On way down get on the rope as low down as possible, like lying sideways on the floor, every inch helps. On way out, get sideways and off the rope as soon as possible at the top. Do not try to ascend right up to touch the anchors or you'll struggle. Follow this and it should be just fine.

I've only ascended Bar Pot twice (others will have been there way more) so this is just my inexperienced opinion. Repeating original disclaimer about knowing SRT!

 

[Babyhagrid]

Small mammal is far superior to Bar and can connect at the bottom of the first pitch of Bar

 

[ChrisB]

I suggest down Bar, then along South East passage and turn right to the Main Chamber as it's worth seeing. Then return to SE passage and either back to Bar or Small Mammal, or continue on to Sand Cavern with the option to exit via Stream Passage Pot or return back to Bar.

Most of the passages are walking or stopping, some crawls but nothing tight. There's an awkward bit at the top of Stream Passage but it's more awkward than tight.

Navigation is worth reading up on.

 

[Lankyman]

I suggest down Bar, then along South East passage and turn right to the Main Chamber as it's worth seeing. Then return to SE passage and either back to Bar or Small Mammal, or continue on to Sand Cavern with the option to exit via Stream Passage Pot or return back to Bar.

Most of the passages are walking or stopping, some crawls but nothing tight. There's an awkward bit at the top of Stream Passage but it's more awkward than tight.

Navigation is worth reading up on.

Are surveys still available? I used one in 1974-ish to navigate myself from Main to Sand Cavern on my first winch trip (aged 14, things were evidently a bit more relaxed in those days!). A few years later and we had advanced to the descriptions and those solid black surveys in Northern Caves to navigate to the furthest reaches.

 

[langcliffe]

Are surveys still available? I used one in 1974-ish to navigate myself from Main to Sand Cavern on my first winch trip (aged 14, things were evidently a bit more relaxed in those days!). A few years later and we had advanced to the descriptions and those solid black surveys in Northern Caves to navigate to the furthest reaches.

Mike Meredith's 1975 survey is probably the most useful of those readily available.

 

[Lankyman]

Mike Meredith's 1975 survey is probably the most useful of those readily available.

That's probably what I used (paper version of course)! I may still have it rolled up somewhere.

 

[andrewmcleod]

It's a bit crazy we are still relying on a 50 year old survey - not because it isn't a good survey, but I wonder if Mike Meredith thought it would still be the 'definitive' version (or at least the available version) people were using in 50 years time...

 

[ChrisB]

The CNCC route description is useful

https://cncc.org.uk/caving/download-guide/?uid=47ca4241-6ce8-4717-a766-a06d604246d6

as is

CaveMaps.org

 

[langcliffe]

It's a bit crazy we are still relying on a 50 year old survey - not because it isn't a good survey, but I wonder if Mike Meredith thought it would still be the 'definitive' version (or at least the available version) people were using in 50 years time...

Meredith's survey was a cobbled-together version using other people's work. It was a bit controversial at the time because of that, and also because he unilaterally renamed Gandalf Gallet 'Quicksand Passage' for some reason! The whole area beyond Terminal Lake has little in common with reality. However, it is the best survey for finding your way round the system.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Never (yet anyway... give me a couple of weeks) been on a BPC winch meet myself, but on the Aug CPC meet if you go at a weekend it's so busy you could stop passers by to ask directions . I'm not endorsing that as a navigation method! just saying ..

 

[alanw]

back to Bar or Small Mammal, or continue on to Sand Cavern

Sand Cavern is only a short distance right at "T Junction", it's well worth a quick look.

If you're heading north up South Passage going to the main chamber and you come to a pool, you've gone a bit too far. "Portcullis" is a low crawl on the right once the stooping passage opens up. It's also easy to miss the turn into South Passage from SE Passage.

I and others, will be there for the next three weeks, come and have a chat and we'll try and answer any questions.