Hand Ascenders

[Dep]

i have a single peice of string that forms my safety cord and foot loop. this is attached to my hand jammer using a maillion. I then have another carabiner clipped into the same loop as the maillion to form a 3rd cows tails.
I do not like the use of a carabiner to connect my hand jammer to safety cord as if you then use it as a 3rd cows tail, sods law says you will drop the jammer off the crab when you open the gate. (not very likely but possible so why risk it?)

Ditto.
I am still trying to persuade GeoffR that this is so!
And making a small overhand loop knot to tie the cord top the maiilon still gives me the pump option that LesW describes.

 

[Dave H]

I don't think anyone every died from a spelling mistake. I stand to be corrected!

To a red-neck this example of instructions could cause a problem if one was misspelled as the other.

Do not eat!

Donut, eat!  :

 

[SamT]

Saftey leash issues have been discussed at length before on this site.

It seems to boil down to a few key points.

The major one consideration is

DO YOU WANT THE ABILITY TO HAUL/SELF RESCUE,MAKE EMERGENCY
IF YES -
    DO YOU WANT A THIRD COWS TAIL
    IF YES
        you need one single piece of cord from mallion to footloop.
        attached to hand jammer by a screwgate krab,
        A mallion will be too dificult to do in the heat of a rescue.
        i prefer an oval Krab for loading reasons when counter balancing etc)
        attached to the krab with either a bowline on the bight or alpine butterfly
        again for ease of undoing.
        Foot loop tied with a yosemite bowline (ease of undoing and holds the 'open' so
        you can get your foot in).
        Use a spare snap link - say your braking krab, on the screwgate
    IF NO
        as above but you dont bother with the snap link
IF NO
    IS WEIGHT YOUR FIRST CONSIDERATION.
    IF YES
      Then go for just putting the jammer on your long cowstail.
    IF NO
        DO YOU WANT A THIRD COWSTAIL.
        IF YES
            use a mallion to attach to hand jammer and a krab in the Jammer.
        IF NO
            prat about with tape,mallions etc and basically what the hell you want.
        ENDIF
    ENDIF
ENDIF
     

 

[Robert Scott]

PB, anyone every tell you you're pedantic?

Ummm, no. Would you like to be the first? 

Perhaps it's just as well that mistakes made in the text of some cavers' posts are not reflected as life-threatening errors in their caving practices.

I don't think anyone every died from a spelling mistake. I stand to be corrected!

Archduke Franz Ferdinand to his wife Sophie "My note to the travel agent definitely said a Baltic holiday in Sarayevo!"

 

[Geoff R]

just back from business travel ..... 

i have a single peice of string that forms my safety cord and foot loop. this is attached to my hand jammer using a maillion. I then have another carabiner clipped into the same loop as the maillion to form a 3rd cows tails.
I do not like the use of a carabiner to connect my hand jammer to safety cord as if you then use it as a 3rd cows tail, sods law says you will drop the jammer off the crab when you open the gate. (not very likely but possible so why risk it?)

Ditto.
I am still trying to persuade GeoffR that this is so!
And making a small overhand loop knot to tie the cord top the maiilon still gives me the pump option that LesW describes.

Hum,  DEP refers to my last months system ..... 
9mm dynamic from D to krab, then attach seperate footloop and/or hand jammer as needed.
A seperate system from my normal cowtails.
Unlikely risk of dropping hand jammer because you attach in advance of need - and anyway I carry spare
BUT with this system = no easy chance to convert to a pulley. 

This months trial  .... took delivery from Ingle...t  last week.
9mm combined safety cord/footloop, using krab at hand jammer tied with bowline on Bight
giving easy pulley option / easy undo compared maillon.   
AND
Ive added a further seperate long cowtail,  right hand side of D
IE 3 cows total

(at same time Ive up'ed my "couple of year old" cows from 9mm to 10mm)

Guess that will mean Ive then tried most systems. 
all seem to have advantages / disadvantages ........

Geoff R




 

 

[Hammy]

I think SamT has it fairly in a nutshell!

The crucial point is that you have a versatile system.

It is  easy to produce a basic system that will do the job but with a little knowledge you should be able to come up with something far more useful for that occasional time when things don't go according to plan....

 

[hyweldavies]

[/quote]
I don't think anyone every died from a spelling mistake. I stand to be corrected!
[/quote]

Wasn't Roger Casement (or another Irish Patriot) "hanged for a comma" ? His defence was based on a 500 year old Act on what was and wasn't treason. The argument was along the lines that he'd conspired with the King's enemies, but outside the realm. The act said something like "with the King's enemies in his realm". Not suprisingly they didn't fall for it at all, but used the argument that a smudge on the parchment was a comma to justify the conviction, rather than relying on the fact he'd clearly been treasonable, and admitted it.  (pedantically, that is punctuation rather than spelling, admittedly).

Hywel

 

[beardedboy]

i have a single peice of string that forms my safety cord and foot loop. this is attached to my hand jammer using a maillion. I then have another carabiner clipped into the same loop as the maillion to form a 3rd cows tails.
I do not like the use of a carabiner to connect my hand jammer to safety cord as if you then use it as a 3rd cows tail, sods law says you will drop the jammer off the crab when you open the gate. (not very likely but possible so why risk it?)

I have my single piece 8mm cord n foot loop connected to the jammer via a krab and a bowline (easy to undo if req. and tied as small as poss, so it doesn't slip around the krab)

I position the krab in the upside down position, which means that the gate screws down, and if i need to use it as a third cows tail etc. then my security link would have to come out before my jammer would fall off, simply because it is trapped between the screwgate and the knot... something i don't believe is possible if you are using it as another point of attachment.

 

[DCWB]

Do you prefer an ascender with a handle (Petzl Ascension) or without (Petzl Basic)?

Would the handle affect your choice of attachment?

 

[wormster]

Do you prefer an ascender with a handle (Petzl Ascension) or without (Petzl Basic)?

Would the handle affect your choice of attachment?

with a handle, thank you.

 

[Brains]

I go with SamT's summary - and I have a single length with undoable knots and screwgates. Due to the wear I have experienced on alloy krabs, I use a steel screw oval into the jammer, and a steel maillon into my harness D.
I used to have a handled jammer, but now use a handless version, as I found the handle a complete waste of space and was getting in the way when packing, hindered changing hands and makes pulley jammer creation more difficult. I also carry a spare basic jammer and fixed pulley with oval krabs, as I fine them more versatile than a Pantin or similar device...
As I am in Limerick on business, I will now go and start on tonights share of the Guinness lake...

 

[LarryFatcat]

I agree with Potholer that a steel maillon is a bad idea. For many cavers it tends to get opened so seldom that the one time you want to open it (like taking off your ascender to improvise during a rescue), you find it won't open. Plus a steel maillon will wear out the hole in the jammer.

Totally agree with this view...

IIRC there was some caving acident even death due to a hang up in heavy water that was atributed to the caver being unable to relaese themself from the top ascender...????  if you whack you top ascender into a knot (which of course no-one has ever done!) and you cant free yourself from it then you have a biggger problem than just unclipping and reaching for your spare ascender (whcich if course you have in you kitbag)  :

(spelling and puctuation errors included for the benfit of the clearly bored forum pedants)

I don't think its a valid argument that people leave their kit in such a state that they can't open a maillon.  I think its part of the basic caving code that if you can't be bothered to clean your kit don't go underground.
Rant over, I use a titanium or steel crab because it makes it easy to clip the footloop back on itself, to give you a shorter footloop when you need it. The titanium or steel bit is so the crab doesn't wear through.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

Saftey leash issues have been discussed at length before on this site.

It seems to boil down to a few key points.

The major one consideration is

DO YOU WANT THE ABILITY TO HAUL/SELF RESCUE,MAKE EMERGENCY
IF YES -
    DO YOU WANT A THIRD COWS TAIL
    IF YES
        you need one single piece of cord from mallion to footloop.
        attached to hand jammer by a screwgate krab,
        A mallion will be too dificult to do in the heat of a rescue.
        i prefer an oval Krab for loading reasons when counter balancing etc)
        attached to the krab with either a bowline on the bight or alpine butterfly
        again for ease of undoing.
        Foot loop tied with a yosemite bowline (ease of undoing and holds the 'open' so
        you can get your foot in).
        Use a spare snap link - say your braking krab, on the screwgate
    IF NO
        as above but you dont bother with the snap link
    ENDIF
IF NO
    IS WEIGHT YOUR FIRST CONSIDERATION.
    IF YES
      Then go for just putting the jammer on your long cowstail.
    IF NO
        DO YOU WANT A THIRD COWSTAIL.
        IF YES
            use a mallion to attach to hand jammer and a krab in the Jammer.
        IF NO
            prat about with tape,mallions etc and basically what the hell you want.
        ENDIF
    ENDIF
ENDIF
     

You missed an ENDIF...

 

[Charlie]

I agree with Potholer that a steel maillon is a bad idea. For many cavers it tends to get opened so seldom that the one time you want to open it (like taking off your ascender to improvise during a rescue), you find it won't open. Plus a steel maillon will wear out the hole in the jammer.

Totally agree with this view...

IIRC there was some caving acident even death due to a hang up in heavy water that was atributed to the caver being unable to relaese themself from the top ascender...????  if you whack you top ascender into a knot (which of course no-one has ever done!) and you cant free yourself from it then you have a biggger problem than just unclipping and reaching for your spare ascender (whcich if course you have in you kitbag)  :

(spelling and puctuation errors included for the benfit of the clearly bored forum pedants)

I don't think its a valid argument that people leave their kit in such a state that they can't open a maillon.  I think its part of the basic caving code that if you can't be bothered to clean your kit don't go underground.
Rant over, I use a titanium or steel crab because it makes it easy to clip the footloop back on itself, to give you a shorter footloop when you need it. The titanium or steel bit is so the crab doesn't wear through.

I am intrigued, Where are you getting your titanium krabs from?

 

[potholer]

I don't think its a valid argument that people leave their kit in such a state that they can't open a maillon.  I think its part of the basic caving code that if you can't be bothered to clean your kit don't go underground.

You think that's a code everyone signs up to?

Rant over, I use a titanium or steel crab because it makes it easy to clip the footloop back on itself, to give you a shorter footloop when you need it. The titanium or steel bit is so the crab doesn't wear through.

Why would the crab wear through? - the 7mm alloy maillon I use is only just showing visible wear after a good few years of regular use.

 

[LarryFatcat]

[/quote]

I am intrigued, Where are you getting your titanium krabs from?
[/quote]

Have some from Bernies, 10+ yrs old pristine.  I think I can get more from Ukraine.

 

[LarryFatcat]

.

You think that's a code everyone signs up to?.

You think that's anothher thread?

 

[potholer]

For many people, there may be a difference between cleaning and servicing.
SRT kit requires very little servicing (maybe an occasional drop of oil on a sticking krab gate?)

Kits are often cleaned by use, or after a particularly dirty trip, by a fairly basic washing.
Almost all the openable stuff (main maillon and virtually all krabs except hand-jammer krab) get opened in regular usage, so it's harder for them to end up rusting shut, making the hand-jammer krab possibly a particularly vulnerable one.

However, given that very few people have titanium krabs, and most would see steel as unnecessary weight, people will naturally tend towards alloy as the general best choice, so are less likely to find a krab rusting closed whatever their cleaning or servicing tendencies.

 

[cap n chris]

(maybe an occasional drop of oil on a sticking krab gate?)

Silicone oil is best, IIRC, as opposed to petro-chemical variants which aren't friendly towards rope, so the grapevine says.

 

[graham]

You use grapevine? Why not hemp or sisal like normal people?