Hauling systems - (Split from: Win lots of shiny kit!)

Mark Wright

Active member
I run working aloft training courses and use capstan winches like these for getting people up and down large sailing yacht masts. Unfortunately they come with a sailing yacht price tag. I sell the full range of Harken winches if anyone is feeling flush.

Mark
 

mikem

Well-known member
Retail about ?500:
https://www.marinesuperstore.com/deck-hardware/winches/lewmar-self-tailing-ocean-winch
 

Fjell

Well-known member
mikem said:
Retail about ?500:
https://www.marinesuperstore.com/deck-hardware/winches/lewmar-self-tailing-ocean-winch
Thats for the baby one. A set of winches for a 40 foot boat can easily set you back ?15k. And that?s before you feel a burning need for electric ones, which is comically more to buy and get installed, but good for pensioners with boat names like ?Sorry Kids?, I jest not.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
One result I think is important is that if you use a Microtraxion and a rescue pulley in a simple 3:1 to lift your 100kg mate on 11mm rope, you need to pull 40kg up - which many (most?) people will not be able to do. If you go for a redirection to the side, you probably still need 2 people pulling to make easy progress. Just 'build a Z-rig and pull' is not an effective self-rescue technique unless you can do it as a counterbalance or you have a few people who can pull (which requires somewhere they can be to pull...)

With an I'D it's 49kg, which is still very doable by counterbalance or team hauling (obviously, since this is what teams do) which isn't much worse than just using the Microtraxion. I assume a Rig will be similar to the I'D.
 

Mark Wright

Active member
Fjell said:
Thats for the baby one. A set of winches for a 40 foot boat can easily set you back ?15k. And that?s before you feel a burning need for electric ones, which is comically more to buy and get installed, but good for pensioners with boat names like ?Sorry Kids?, I jest not.

One of my customers would have to add a couple of zeros if they needed to replace theirs.

Mark
 

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mikem

Well-known member
If you have another pulley (& suitable anchors) you can redirect the rope back down again, to use counterbalance (at less than 49kg) - counterbalancing also allows you to effectively pull up on the down rope, thus "lightening the load".

Has anyone done tests to see how effective pulling on different diameter ropes is? (obviously will vary between individuals, but presumably the relative amounts will be more consistent)

[Mark = ?1.5 million?]
 

Fjell

Well-known member
Mark Wright said:
Fjell said:
Thats for the baby one. A set of winches for a 40 foot boat can easily set you back ?15k. And that?s before you feel a burning need for electric ones, which is comically more to buy and get installed, but good for pensioners with boat names like ?Sorry Kids?, I jest not.

One of my customers would have to add a couple of zeros if they needed to replace theirs.

Mark
The thing about boats like that when you meet them out in the sticks is that the crew seem to be having a good time, but the owner is never there. Never seems like good value. I have cousins who skipper boats like that and I am told it is all true. They just move them around from place to place for a few days visit from the owner. Whatever. They seem to miss out on the one man maintenance schedule you get to enjoy with no shops to hand.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Fjell said:
Chocolate fireguard said:
Fjell said:
This is the way I do it. This is just a simple z rig using two 90% Pulleys. I start from the haul being a force of 1 and work my way through. I am ignoring the angles. It def helps with more complex systems. If you use krabs at 50% instead you see how bad it gets. You get different answers in most rigs by swapping the krabs and pulleys about. It?s why using bearing pulleys like the microtraxion give such better results. In a z rig you go from 2.7 to 1.75 with krabs, something like that, if I haven?t cocked it up in my old age.

Yes that's a better way of doing things. It gives higher efficiencies than my method as it more accurately deals with what happens at the jammer.
You suggest that krabs give only 50%. Do you have anything on Stops, I'Ds etc?

Some here, you can work them out. There is a lot on the Petzl tech site on various things.

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Pulley-system-efficiency-tests-with-MAESTRO--I-D-S--PRO-TRAXION--ROLLCLIP---?ProductName=I-D-S
Thanks.
That seems strongly to suggest that for a Z-rig haul with an I'D or similar and 2 or 3 very good pulleys the mechanical advantage is going to be below 2:1
 

mikem

Well-known member
With I'D & one pulley (so standard Z rig) in perfect conditions, it'll be approx 2.2:1, so yes, can easily be below 2.

Does suggest the BCA recommendation to only use locking belay devices for rescues may be a bit simplistic, when it almost triples the drag on the haul - fine for teams with plenty of manpower, but not great for one on one scenarios.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
mikem said:
With I'D & one pulley (so standard Z rig) in perfect conditions, it'll be approx 2.2:1, so yes, can easily be below 2.

Does suggest the BCA recommendation to only use locking belay devices for rescues may be a bit simplistic, when it almost triples the effort required for hauling - fine for teams with plenty of manpower, but not great for one on one scenarios.
Unless you are just assisting someone, if you are alone you either have to go to 7:1 or counter balance. I would go for the latter and use your legs, way way faster. And use a decent pulley like a traxion, otherwise any loss in efficiency in the pulley you prob have to compensate by pulling up. A Stop or krab would be very hard going for any distance.
 

Mike Hopley

New member
Fjell said:
And use a decent pulley like a traxion, otherwise any loss in efficiency in the pulley you prob have to compensate by pulling up. A Stop or krab would be very hard going for any distance.

In practice I found there wasn't a massive difference doing Spanish Pendulum with just a chain of krabs, or using a pulley for the return krab. The main benefit was getting progress capture with the (micro) traxion.

I've not had the chance to try this on a big pitch, though. I'm sure I'd appreciate the pulley then!
 

Mark Wright

Active member
There was a discussion about the effectiveness of a 3:1 Z rig pulley systems on here some time ago. The photo I posted of the 3:1 configuration with the ID and low efficiency Fixe pulleys is regularly used for 100kg rescue practice on oil rigs with only 1 person doing the pulling over a 30m haul distance. They do get a bit of a sweat on mind.

The main reason for the releasable capture system is so you don't end up with the casualty jammed up against something during the haul, unable to either haul them up any further or lower them off. The fatality on Garlands Pot in Giants Hole some years ago was due to using a non-releasable capture system.

Mark.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
mikem said:
With I'D & one pulley (so standard Z rig) in perfect conditions, it'll be approx 2.2:1, so yes, can easily be below 2.

Does suggest the BCA recommendation to only use locking belay devices for rescues may be a bit simplistic, when it almost triples the drag on the haul - fine for teams with plenty of manpower, but not great for one on one scenarios.
This is something that is taught and assessed in different configurations at both LCMLA L2 and CIC. It is perfectly feasible for an individual to do this hoist over short distances using a device like the Petzl RIG. The QMC recommend the use of an EN15151 device for belaying because that is the standard most applicable. The statement you refer to do is more to do with ensuring people are not belaying with Traxion or pulley-jammer style devices as standard practice. Using a Traxion is perfectly acceptable for assisting climbers and hauling, so lowering some down if they have issues using your RIG, and then re-rigging with a Traxion or pulley-jammer for a haul is common.
This recommendation does not exclude the use of non-locking belay devices or knots however, but they have other issues.

NB, any CIC or L2 leader will know how to make this haul more efficient, even if they do have to demonstrate the ability to do it with a locking belay device and z-rig as a minimum.

* Crossed posts with Mark
 

Pete K

Well-known member
mikem said:
The advice said the pulley jammer "should no longer be used".
...for belaying, not hauling. It must never be subjected to anything except a static load (i.e. no dynamic drops) or it may deform and fail in that specific configuration set out in the notice.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
Mark Wright said:
One of my customers would have to add a couple of zeros if they needed to replace theirs.

Mark

That's a lovely bit of kit! you can rent it too, a mere snip at $0.5mill per week.  :cry:
 

mikem

Well-known member
Pete K said:
mikem said:
The advice said the pulley jammer "should no longer be used".
...for belaying, not hauling. It must never be subjected to anything except a static load (i.e. no dynamic drops) or it may deform and fail in that specific configuration set out in the notice.
Although the report was about belaying, the recommendation wasn't specific about application & the previous discussion on here seemed to be discouraging any use...
 
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