How irradiated are you?

[muskyhannah]

Hello! Apologies for the fear mongering title - I promise it's not all that bad in reality.

I'm studying in university and have been given an assignment in which I have to communicate a scientific topic to an audience of interest. Cavers being the most interesting audience by far, I've started researching radon as a lesser considered hazard in UK caves. I'm hoping to calculate risk and hopefully demonstrate that it's not quite as horrifying as articles in the 90s suggested. Some simple calculations with trip length and number of trips should help with rough estimates.

I'd really appreciate if anyone could take the time to answer my 3 question survey.

Cavers Questionnaire

Hello! I'm doing a small assignment on communicating science to an audience of my choice. Cavers being the obvious choice I've looked into radon and concentrations in different UK caves. To calculate exposure I need information about region and time underground, I would really appreciate it if...

docs.google.com

 

[JoshW]

Would be worth reaching out to QMC to get all their info that they’ve gathered on radon.

 

[mikem]

If you haven't already, then search radon on Descent magazine website, it'll guide you to various past articles.

 

[wellyjen]

On the plus side, with enough exposure, you don't need a lamp to see by underground.

 

[Lankyman]

On the plus side, with enough exposure, you don't need a lamp to see by underground.

I think the safest option is to eat lots of carrots?

 

[alanw]

On the plus side, with enough exposure, you don't need a lamp to see by underground.

NTNOCN Windscale spoof Ready Brek advert

 

[caving_fox]

I think the safest option is to eat lots of carrots?

Off topic I know but, LOL https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/does-eating-carrots-improve-vision/
Some of the first deliberate fake news.

 

[paul]

Moderator comment: Let's keep on topic please. This post was originally in Idle Chat but has been moved to Cave Science.

 

[ChrisB]

Would be worth reaching out to QMC to get all their info that they’ve gathered on radon.

I've sent you a direct message, Hannah

 

[braveduck]

I think the safest option is to eat lots of carrots?

Well don't eat Bananas because that gives you one milli sievert or something like that !

 

[braveduck]

Radon is bad enough ,but if you also smoke it makes matter much worse .

 

[Bob Mehew]

Would be worth reaching out to QMC to get all their info that they’ve gathered on radon.

All of the data which is shareable by QMC is posted at https://british-caving.org.uk/about-bca/working-groups/radon/ . I recall that there was a small amount of other data held by certain parties which we were unable to gain access for one reason or another (mainly because nobody knew who held it and who owned it).

On a separate note, when we approached predecessors of the UK Health Security Agency, they felt there was insufficient data to make authoritative risk estimates so we ceased pursuing that line. Radon Underground does provide some information on risk and comparing it to other caving related risks.

 

[cap n chris]

The 2017 revision to the 1999 IRR regs re Rn222 in UK caves finished off professional caving as a tenable option due to the logging requirements and the revalidation reviewing. Certainly no-one would be able to derive a livelihood from caving in South Wales or the Peak District anymore.

 

[Lankyman]

The 2017 revision to the 1999 IRR regs re Rn222 in UK caves finished off professional caving as a tenable option due to the logging requirements and the revalidation reviewing. Certainly no-one would be able to derive a livelihood from caving in South Wales or the Peak District anymore.

I recall the studies of radon back in the eighties and that some Peak caves were found to have high levels. Some cavers in the Dales I knew carried dosimeters as well at the time. Are Peak/South Wales caves of more concern or have other areas just not been studied as much?

 

[amw]

Not just caves, I live in a Radon area (edge of the Cotswolds). When we had an extension to the house fitted, we needed a radon mat under the foundations.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The 2017 revision to the 1999 IRR regs re Rn222 in UK caves finished off professional caving as a tenable option due to the logging requirements and the revalidation reviewing. Certainly no-one would be able to derive a livelihood from caving in South Wales or the Peak District anymore.

There are a number of LCMLA and CIC Trainer / Assessors on the BCA web site covering both South Wales and Derbyshire, so I would assume that a fair number of people still cave professionally. Though I expect they all have other lines of work.

I recall the studies of radon back in the eighties and that some Peak caves were found to have high levels. Some cavers in the Dales I knew carried dosimeters as well at the time. Are Peak/South Wales caves of more concern or have other areas just not been studied as much?

Radon is a potential problem in all regions. https://british-caving.org.uk/documents/radon-data/?tmstv=1762430855 provides the information available to all. I have not recently checked the literature but I believe unfortunately Giants still holds the world record for a reliable reading. My memory is that South Wales has also spent a fair amount of effort characterising the problem compared to other regions, not that it is as bad as Derbyshire.

 

[Lankyman]

Not just caves, I live in a Radon area (edge of the Cotswolds). When we had an extension to the house fitted, we needed a radon mat under the foundations.

Where is the radon coming from? I've heard of places such as Aberdeen where granite houses appeared to be problematic.

 

[ChrisB]

Where is the radon coming from?

Radon is a product of the decay chain from Uranium and Thorium (via Radium). Radium and Thorium have long half-lives so are still present in rock having been there since the Earth was formed. Radon is a gas whereas the parent elements are solid, so as the radon forms it drifts our of the rock into the air or water. Radon has a short half-life of 3.82 days so quite quickly decays into polonium, but it is being continually replenished from U and Th.

As a gas that decays by emission of alpha particles, it's potentially dangerous. Alpha particles are stopped by skin, but if you breathe the radon into your lungs there's no skin.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The sources of radon gas in Britain are varied. Most caves in Britain are developed in the Carboniferous Limestone, which is generally rich in organic material and in places has thin, organic-rich mud layers. The organic matter may frequently contain small amounts of uranium compounds. In addition, the rocks, either beneath a cave (often Devonian) or above (other Carboniferous or younger rocks), can also be uraniferous. As the uranium decays the radon gas produced can seep out through fissures, either upwards or downwards, and may collect in voids. Similarly, in mines the source of radon are the same uraniferous compounds. Notable uranium-rich rocks and mineral veins are associated with the granites located in Devon and Cornwall. Certain parts of the Carboniferous Limestone sequence in Wales and Derbyshire are also known to be rich in uranium and thus have high radon potential. However, other rocks, such as the Old Red Sandstone of Caithness and the Northampton Sand in Northamptonshire, may have significant levels of uranium compounds. (From Radon Underground.)

One of the complicating factors for Derbyshire is the eroded Northampton Sand which has been deposited in some the caves there as sand banks, thus increasing the source of radon.

 

[Lankyman]

Radon is a product of the decay chain from Uranium and Thorium (via Radium). Radium and Thorium have long half-lives so are still present in rock having been there since the Earth was formed. Radon is a gas whereas the parent elements are solid, so as the radon forms it drifts our of the rock into the air or water. Radon has a short half-life of 3.82 days so quite quickly decays into polonium, but it is being continually replenished from U and Th.

As a gas that decays by emission of alpha particles, it's potentially dangerous. Alpha particles are stopped by skin, but if you breathe the radon into your lungs there's no skin.

Has anyone tried establishing whether or not cavers have higher or lower levels of lung cancer than the general population? There must be so many variables I imagine it would be very difficult to establish one way or the other. And would anyone be that bothered (unless it was a massively greater risk)? My view of caving at the time when radon loomed over the horizon was that the health and fitness benefits far outweighed anything else so I wasn't going to worry.