A long time ago we went to Derbyshire with the intention of laddering Eldon Hole and then going for a walk, and I figured that a combination of jeans / tee-shirt / sweater would be fine for such a trip. However, we had a change of mind and did Giant's Hole instead . . .me in jeans / tee-shirt / sweater (this in the days before Backwash Pool was blown up). I wouldn't recommend it.
How times change...
- Thread starter Brains
- Start date
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
caving_fox
Active member
For me, as others, the big change is lighting. Carbide was just fading out when I started, FX3 and Oldham, (and Kirby kidney packs!) were ubiquitous, but ~6 hrs was practical. Anything longer and at least some of the party were coming out in the dark - many early trips woudl only have had 2-3 working lights out of 5.
That's inconceivable these days.
Access is the other significant change. Being able to book an entrance online, on the day, without sending a posted letter on club paper 3 months in advance is a luxury still not taken for granted. Having the survey and rigging guide available and updated rather than someone else's out-of-print mud-smeared photocopy helps a lot too.
I just wish we could go back to the old prices! Everything is a lot more expensive.
That's inconceivable these days.
Access is the other significant change. Being able to book an entrance online, on the day, without sending a posted letter on club paper 3 months in advance is a luxury still not taken for granted. Having the survey and rigging guide available and updated rather than someone else's out-of-print mud-smeared photocopy helps a lot too.
I just wish we could go back to the old prices! Everything is a lot more expensive.
Lankyman
Well-known member
Yes, I remember those ads as well. Was it a climbing or caving rope called 'Black Whip' that used similarly gratuitous imagery?
cavingbiker
Active member
Yes beer less than 50p a pint!
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Some beer back then was so awful that CAMRA was founded. They singled out Watney's Red Barrel in particular. Occasionally I nip in to a local-ish pub which is very enthusiastic for CAMRA and in a glass case they have a can of Red Barrel (an old one before ring-pulls) as a historic item of shame. That said... we still have terrible beer for >£5 a pint, >£7 a pint in London
Brains
Well-known member
I believe the Watneys Red Barrel had formaldehyde as a preservative. Probably not enough ethanol in it...
Lankyman
Well-known member
A little googling brings this up - don't look too closely if the politically incorrect advertising attitudes of the seventies might offend (it really was another time/place/planet back then).
Black Whip Rope - Scottish Mountain Heritage Collection
Black Whip Rope - Rock Climbing, Mountain Rescue, Snow & Ice Climbing, Mountain Technology, Camping, Footwear, Clothing, Mountaineering, Ben Nevis - Journals Objects and Archives
smhc.co.uk
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Not sure whether to respond with surprised/horrified emoji or a laughing one. I need both really. My avatar has a rope draped over my shoulders, not sure I carry it off quite like the advert though!A little googling brings this up - don't look too closely if the politically incorrect advertising attitudes of the seventies might offend (it really was another time/place/planet back then).
Black Whip Rope - Scottish Mountain Heritage Collection
Black Whip Rope - Rock Climbing, Mountain Rescue, Snow & Ice Climbing, Mountain Technology, Camping, Footwear, Clothing, Mountaineering, Ben Nevis - Journals Objects and Archives
Mark Wright
Well-known member
AlexR, When you say LED lights in 2008 were pretty so-and-so, do you mean not very good?
I started caving in 1978 and used either an Oldham or a Premier carbide lamp for years before moving on to an expedition carbide
and then onto LED lights for the past 20+ years.
I don't remember LED lights in 2008 being poor. Having had a couple of Mulu trips in 1996 and 98 using carbide lamps, we were all
amazed at how good the Petzl Myo XP was during the 2005 trip when we discovered Moon Cave. The 2005 version was only about
50 Lumens but they were the brightest lights any of us had ever seen. We would certainly have missed some high level passages
had we still been using carbide. I think the 2008 version was about 150 Lumens. Blinding!!
I was lucky enough to be loaned a prototype 1450 Lumen Scurion lamp when Robbie Shone photographed about 1/3rd of Sarawak
Chamber in 2011. The rest of the team were loaned 1300 Lumen models so we could take the same photograph of the chamber but
only using Scurion lamps for light. Some of us purchased the lamps after the trip.
It wasn't long after that I remember sitting with Chris Blakeley in the Starless River passage in the Berger comparing my 1450 Lumen
Scurion with a prototype for a new 750 Lumen Petzl headlamp. I can't remember the model. We both agreed the Scurion was better,
but only a bit.
I sold my Scurion a couple of years ago, as my neck muscles struggled with the weight of it on an Erin Roc helmet. I replaced it with
the new Petzl Duo RL lamp. It's certainly brighter than my old Scurion but definitely not 2 x as bright. It's claimed to be 2800 Lumen.
I can't really see headlamp technology needing to get much better than where we currently are, other than being able to connect it to
my home Hive system and switch the central heating on.
I don't think a bright light necessarily makes you a better caver but it certainly makes it easier to see where you are going, and spot
all the high level leads that would likely have been missed in the carbide and Oldham days. If headlamps get any brighter you might
as well take up canyoning and save yourself the £720.00 it costs for a new 1500 Lumen Scurion.
Whilst advances in Lithium Ion technology have significantly changed over the years, I don't think it's particularly changed how we
explore caves.
Cordless drill technology in 1993 didn't stop Badlad and me climbing almost to the top of the +100m Astrodome in Uzueka,
Matienzo in a very similar 10m/hr. We did a 25m climb each on both the days we spent on the climb, and we carried all our own gear.
We used a Bosch GBH24VRE, or maybe the earlier version, with a separate battery (motorcycle battery sized) that we hung on our
harness in a small bag. We were stopped by a large band of mud that prevented any further upward progress. We had successfully
used the same drill and battery set-up when we were climbing in the Gallery of the DED near the bottom of the Berger in 1992. Testing
before this trip suggested we could install about 100 bolts per charge.
In 1994, Alan Box and me returned to Uzueka and successfully used a 6m Maypole to get over the large band of mud at the top and
into new passage. Sadly, due to taking a fall from near the top of the Astrodome on the way out, this was Alan's last ever caving trip.
Over 30 years on, I still can't think of another way of getting over the mud band. It must be one of those 'really specialised cases'.
I've not put a bolt in by hand for many years but, like Pitlamp, I still carry a bolting tool and some anchors and wedges in my
bolting kit. Mainly for when I'm only a couple of bolts away from new passage and the last drill battery has gone flat!
I know a lot of Pitlamp's experiences will have been beyond Far Sump in Peak Cavern in the 1980's, where getting a drill and
battery through what was then the longest sump in the country (cave to cave) was not so straight forward.
It was in the mid 1980's that, with the help of members of the CDG Derbyshire Section, Northern Diver produced the first ever
100% waterproof neoprene drill bag. That was a game changer and allowed us to get drills and batteries through the underwater
parts of the Peak / Speedwell system and get to the tops of Schoolroom Aven, Buxton Water Aven, Cliff Cavern and to the tops
of the many avens in the Far Sump extensions that Pitlamp climbed. This was before there was another way in.
I'm not convinced putting a bolt in by hand necessarily equates to it being put in the right place. I know when I was regularly
placing bolts by hand, getting myself into a comfortable position and being able to comfortably swing the hammer in the general
direction was my primary concern. It meant there were plenty that didn't go in the best locations for rigging. With an Uneo in your
hand there's no real reason why a bolt should ever be badly placed.
On the SRT front, I don't really see any differences to how we did it 40 years ago. The ropes, harnesses, ascenders and descenders
we were using then are basically exactly the same as what we are using now. Again, Badlad and me were pushing caves very far
from home on 8mm accessory cord in 1988. I carry out examinations of UHMWPE products as part of my work and I'm not
convinced using Dyneema string in caves will provide any real advancement in what new exploration is achievable. It's more likely
to snap when it runs over a sharp edge with the user probably bouncing on it a bit as they climb or descend. I've seen the
catastrophic damage a rough edge can cause to a 6T UHMWPE lifting sling with only about a 1T load being applied. Luckily there
have been many advancements in cave rescue equipment.
As for capping, whilst you may be able to do a full session with a fancy new 5Ah battery, you are still probably going to take 2 with
you just in case you forgot to charge it up.
I think I'm with Lankyman, apart from modern lamp technology, things haven't really changed that much at all in the past 40 years.
I started caving in 1978 and used either an Oldham or a Premier carbide lamp for years before moving on to an expedition carbide
and then onto LED lights for the past 20+ years.
I don't remember LED lights in 2008 being poor. Having had a couple of Mulu trips in 1996 and 98 using carbide lamps, we were all
amazed at how good the Petzl Myo XP was during the 2005 trip when we discovered Moon Cave. The 2005 version was only about
50 Lumens but they were the brightest lights any of us had ever seen. We would certainly have missed some high level passages
had we still been using carbide. I think the 2008 version was about 150 Lumens. Blinding!!
I was lucky enough to be loaned a prototype 1450 Lumen Scurion lamp when Robbie Shone photographed about 1/3rd of Sarawak
Chamber in 2011. The rest of the team were loaned 1300 Lumen models so we could take the same photograph of the chamber but
only using Scurion lamps for light. Some of us purchased the lamps after the trip.
It wasn't long after that I remember sitting with Chris Blakeley in the Starless River passage in the Berger comparing my 1450 Lumen
Scurion with a prototype for a new 750 Lumen Petzl headlamp. I can't remember the model. We both agreed the Scurion was better,
but only a bit.
I sold my Scurion a couple of years ago, as my neck muscles struggled with the weight of it on an Erin Roc helmet. I replaced it with
the new Petzl Duo RL lamp. It's certainly brighter than my old Scurion but definitely not 2 x as bright. It's claimed to be 2800 Lumen.
I can't really see headlamp technology needing to get much better than where we currently are, other than being able to connect it to
my home Hive system and switch the central heating on.
I don't think a bright light necessarily makes you a better caver but it certainly makes it easier to see where you are going, and spot
all the high level leads that would likely have been missed in the carbide and Oldham days. If headlamps get any brighter you might
as well take up canyoning and save yourself the £720.00 it costs for a new 1500 Lumen Scurion.
Whilst advances in Lithium Ion technology have significantly changed over the years, I don't think it's particularly changed how we
explore caves.
Cordless drill technology in 1993 didn't stop Badlad and me climbing almost to the top of the +100m Astrodome in Uzueka,
Matienzo in a very similar 10m/hr. We did a 25m climb each on both the days we spent on the climb, and we carried all our own gear.
We used a Bosch GBH24VRE, or maybe the earlier version, with a separate battery (motorcycle battery sized) that we hung on our
harness in a small bag. We were stopped by a large band of mud that prevented any further upward progress. We had successfully
used the same drill and battery set-up when we were climbing in the Gallery of the DED near the bottom of the Berger in 1992. Testing
before this trip suggested we could install about 100 bolts per charge.
In 1994, Alan Box and me returned to Uzueka and successfully used a 6m Maypole to get over the large band of mud at the top and
into new passage. Sadly, due to taking a fall from near the top of the Astrodome on the way out, this was Alan's last ever caving trip.
Over 30 years on, I still can't think of another way of getting over the mud band. It must be one of those 'really specialised cases'.
I've not put a bolt in by hand for many years but, like Pitlamp, I still carry a bolting tool and some anchors and wedges in my
bolting kit. Mainly for when I'm only a couple of bolts away from new passage and the last drill battery has gone flat!
I know a lot of Pitlamp's experiences will have been beyond Far Sump in Peak Cavern in the 1980's, where getting a drill and
battery through what was then the longest sump in the country (cave to cave) was not so straight forward.
It was in the mid 1980's that, with the help of members of the CDG Derbyshire Section, Northern Diver produced the first ever
100% waterproof neoprene drill bag. That was a game changer and allowed us to get drills and batteries through the underwater
parts of the Peak / Speedwell system and get to the tops of Schoolroom Aven, Buxton Water Aven, Cliff Cavern and to the tops
of the many avens in the Far Sump extensions that Pitlamp climbed. This was before there was another way in.
I'm not convinced putting a bolt in by hand necessarily equates to it being put in the right place. I know when I was regularly
placing bolts by hand, getting myself into a comfortable position and being able to comfortably swing the hammer in the general
direction was my primary concern. It meant there were plenty that didn't go in the best locations for rigging. With an Uneo in your
hand there's no real reason why a bolt should ever be badly placed.
On the SRT front, I don't really see any differences to how we did it 40 years ago. The ropes, harnesses, ascenders and descenders
we were using then are basically exactly the same as what we are using now. Again, Badlad and me were pushing caves very far
from home on 8mm accessory cord in 1988. I carry out examinations of UHMWPE products as part of my work and I'm not
convinced using Dyneema string in caves will provide any real advancement in what new exploration is achievable. It's more likely
to snap when it runs over a sharp edge with the user probably bouncing on it a bit as they climb or descend. I've seen the
catastrophic damage a rough edge can cause to a 6T UHMWPE lifting sling with only about a 1T load being applied. Luckily there
have been many advancements in cave rescue equipment.
As for capping, whilst you may be able to do a full session with a fancy new 5Ah battery, you are still probably going to take 2 with
you just in case you forgot to charge it up.
I think I'm with Lankyman, apart from modern lamp technology, things haven't really changed that much at all in the past 40 years.
Last edited:
Lankyman
Well-known member
A few pints of Watneys Red Barrel might help (or not)? The equivalent beer of the late seventies that I had to endure was Youngers Tartan. It was about 24p/pint which was its only virtue.
cavingbiker
Active member
Don't forget Double Diamond
Lankyman
Well-known member
I think at least beer and non/alcoholic beverage choices have changed out of all recognition since the 'good old days'. Here's a glimpse of another galaxy far, far away in a time long ago (which just happens to have been filmed the year I started proper caving)
mrodoc
Well-known member
I started just after The Old Ruminator. Fibre helmets and carbide lamps with old boiler suits and leather boots. Photos from the off. Originally my dad's instamatic until it got crushed by a boulder in a find we made. Then a Cosmic (fixed lens 35mm cheap Russian Camera) with cable to flash gun. Later SLR's mainly Zeniths. Tripods sometimes, othertimes, Magicubes manually fired by a bit of gadgetry cribbed from another photographer. Problem with that was if there was more than one flash you had to synchronise them to avoid sl. double exposure. This is one taken by my father in 1967 (Instamatic) in W/L cave - scanned from the original colour slide. Sadly that flow is now stained with mud that would only jet wash off on one side as it had got cemented in then we have a Magicube shot in the 80's taken in Little Neath and lastly my first experiment with underwater photography in Wookey Hole using a Nikonos Camera with a bulb flash on a long cable.
Attachments
Lankyman
Well-known member
Yes. It's good that people made great efforts to record places like Lancaster - Easegill when they were found but it can make me feel a bit sad to see what's been lost. Above ground I'd have loved to have seen places like the Lune Gorge before the M6 and Mardale before drowning.
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