Inspirational women cavers in Britian
- Thread starter adventurebarbie
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The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
I am not sure that I like lists like that. What does anyone have to do to be " inspirational " ? Many people who are good at what they do are quiet about it. They don't resort to social media to promote their activities. They just get on with it. I suppose the whole thing parallels with the honours lists. Its just representative. Almost to the point of meaningless. I have caved with lots of ladies. Why even single them out ? Many are just as good as the blokes they cave with anyway. Certainly they make better cave models. Lets face it ladies are biologically tougher than us blokes anyway. Civilization would cease to exist if men were the child bearers. Even by compiling such a list you are placing those people in a competitive arena. Why should anyone of them be better than the other ? Some are good at diving some other areas. The whole notion is nonsense and its a daft and sexist question to ask in my opinion.
Awaiting incoming ---- :chair:
Awaiting incoming ---- :chair:
PeteHall
Moderator
The Old Ruminator said:
I think you've missed the point TOR.
It remains a fact that less women cave than men, yet as you have pointed out yourself, women make equally good cavers as men (the same I believe is true of rock climbing and a number of other sports, where the physical differences between men and women do not affect performance).
As such, it is surely a good thing for "inspirational" women cavers to be recognised/ interviewed/ whatever else, to inspire more women to take up this great sport. If you see someone like yourself who is good at something, you are more likely to think "I could be good at that too, I'll give it a go"
This is the same reason there is "Women in Engineering" (and presumably other similar organisations that I haven't come across) to encourage more women to get involved in something that is currently much more male dominated, but really needn't be.
badger
Active member
I agree with Pete I think TOR has missed the point, I merely listed women who to me have been inspirational with in caving, all the ones I named to me have done some extraordinary things. I could also list men who have equally been inspirational for lots of different reasons. But this was not asked for.
going onto to diversity in caving is a whole different subject altogether, and one I don't think has a simplistic answer, I dont think the majority of cavers give 2 hoots whether your male/woman/gay/lesbian/black/white/asian/french/indian etc etc. Maybe its a perceived image thing.
or maybe we are alien :alien:
going onto to diversity in caving is a whole different subject altogether, and one I don't think has a simplistic answer, I dont think the majority of cavers give 2 hoots whether your male/woman/gay/lesbian/black/white/asian/french/indian etc etc. Maybe its a perceived image thing.
or maybe we are alien :alien:
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Well I guess it was the list that I found uncomfortable with not the actual concept. My generation rarely found inspiration in others. Its a fairly new thing no doubt enhanced by social media which many seem to find so profound nowadays. Inluencers and self promoting folk abound. No doubt that can lead to a depressive state in those who dont live up to their life model. Likewise I have never understood why somebody would want to wear a football shirt with somebody else's name on. The only other cavers I knew in my early days were the people I actually caved with. A more acceptable question might be cavers who are inspirational . To be inspired by anyone you really need to know them personally rather from a persona that might have been created on social media. Perhaps as has been suggested we should just look at folks as cavers. I would rather think that some on the previous list might find the whole thing rather embarrassing. Should we offer a prize to the one most inspirational ?
PeteHall
Moderator
How many of your generation were inspired by reading Casteret/ Chevaliet/ Gemmel & Myers etc?The Old Ruminator said:
Reading somebody's book is a pretty good way to feel like you know someone who you have never met isn't it? And surely a source of inspiration. Is hearing an interview really that different?
Personally, I don't "follow" anyone on social media, but I can well imagine that if you watch enough videos by someone, you may well feel like you know them, just like reading a book but in a more modern format, so I don't see how this precludes inspiration.
I've been inspired by people I don't even know. Crawling through some old cave dig, you can easily think to yourself "Bloody hell, whoever did this was keen, and look at the reward they must have had breaking through into this!". Right there is inspiration, and you don't even need to know who did it.
I think you are just taking the piss now. If you go back tot he original question, this is about suggesting people who might be interviewed and hence might inspire others to give it a go. Is this really such a difficult concept?
adventurebarbie said:
cavemanmike
Well-known member
After listening to Hazel Barton at hidden earth I would imagine she would give a great interview, after all not everyone can stand up and give a lecture or give an interview
lumenchild
Member
badger said:going onto to diversity in caving is a whole different subject altogether, and one I don't think has a simplistic answer, I dont think the majority of cavers give 2 hoots whether your male/woman/gay/lesbian/black/white/asian/french/indian etc etc. Maybe its a perceived image thing.
That's very true, people in the caving community don't care about what walk of life people are from, all we care about is if the person i front of us and the person behind us just as capable, just in case if things went wrong.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
lumenchild said:badger said:going onto to diversity in caving is a whole different subject altogether, and one I don't think has a simplistic answer, I dont think the majority of cavers give 2 hoots whether your male/woman/gay/lesbian/black/white/asian/french/indian etc etc. Maybe its a perceived image thing.
That's very true, people in the caving community don't care about what walk of life people are from, all we care about is if the person i front of us and the person behind us just as capable, just in case if things went wrong.
I agree with Badger and Lumenchild. One other thing is pehaps worth adding to Badger's list; employment status. I've always believed that one of the great things about the caving community is that it's not snooty. You go underground with professionals / unemployed / manual workers / etc, etc. All have something to offer and what they do for a living is just irrelevant when you're together as a team on a good caving trip. Long may it remain so. (My background is working class, incidentally.)
There's an argument that singling out female cavers for special attention, because they are female, may be counterproductive. (I've had interesting discussions with the OP on this in the past and I accept that the situation is not simple.) But like many others, to me it really doesn't matter who is a male or female on a caving trip. As long as folk are good company and safe to cave with, that's all I ask.
A_Northerner
Active member
The point is that the activity is male-heavy and it is helpful to promote the achievements of women cavers in order to provide a welcoming environment for young women to join in.
Saying "as a caver I don't care if you're male or female", while well-intended, isn't welcoming enough to break that cycle of a male-dominated activity mainly attracting more men. This is where articles/interviews like this come in to help that, because what is needed is an actively welcoming environment.
Saying "as a caver I don't care if you're male or female", while well-intended, isn't welcoming enough to break that cycle of a male-dominated activity mainly attracting more men. This is where articles/interviews like this come in to help that, because what is needed is an actively welcoming environment.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I follow your reasononing here A_Northerner (and agree with you to some extent).
It's just that the three main clubs I'm a member of (two in the Dales and one in the Peak District) each has a significant number of female members nowadays and no-one even thinks about this; it's just normal to us. To me, we've gone beyond the days when it was unusual [to some] to be on a caving trip with a female.
Rather than promoting female cavers because they are female, maybe it's better if we see articles written or films made by them, simply because they are good cavers. (Without wanting to embarrass the OP, I have to say she's been a great example of what I'm suggesting!)
As an aside, when I joined one of my Dales clubs - a big one - it was still all male membership. As a very young caver I was one of those who worked hard to get this changed. It now has loads of women members and no-one even thinks about it. Times have certainly changed for the better.
It's just that the three main clubs I'm a member of (two in the Dales and one in the Peak District) each has a significant number of female members nowadays and no-one even thinks about this; it's just normal to us. To me, we've gone beyond the days when it was unusual [to some] to be on a caving trip with a female.
Rather than promoting female cavers because they are female, maybe it's better if we see articles written or films made by them, simply because they are good cavers. (Without wanting to embarrass the OP, I have to say she's been a great example of what I'm suggesting!)
As an aside, when I joined one of my Dales clubs - a big one - it was still all male membership. As a very young caver I was one of those who worked hard to get this changed. It now has loads of women members and no-one even thinks about it. Times have certainly changed for the better.
mrodoc
Well-known member
As a caver in an all femaile family i.e. wife and two daughters I can confirm they are just as good if not better than many males I have caved with. I have now taken one of my granddaughters underground and she looks to be pretty keen! That will be the fourth generation by the way.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
As a female caver myself, I think the original purpose of this thread is great and some people are perhaps missing the point that it is a female caver utilising media and creative resources to uplift other female cavers, which is a wonderful enterprise.
I don't think it's undermining at all, and certainly a 'daft and sexist question' as the Old Ruminator suggested... while I appreciate the benefits of a critical approach to discussions, and without wanting to sound overly harsh, I do wonder what makes a male caver more qualified to decide what is 'sexist' or not than a female caver.
I'm a young female caver, having started caving just over two years ago now and am now president of Newcastle University Caving Club, and I don't find the suggestions of inspirational female cavers ('lists' as it has been referred to) intimidating at all, rather it is really nice and indeed inspiring to hear about other women that have committed to and excelled in a sport that I love.
Although I know plenty of female cavers now, and am grateful that my male caving friends are very respectful, supportive and non-patronising, within the history of caving there is still a dominant male presence - not only because female cavers were accepted much more recently, but also because no comprehensive history of the growth in female cavers has been assembled or discussed at any length. Paying recognition to the achievements of present-day female cavers is subsequently a worthy effort to reconcile this.
While you might suggest that caving itself is a discrimination-haven whereby 'everyone is accepted' the truth is that wider socio-economic boundaries are still, to an extent, transferred to the caving world as with all other outdoor sports too. For example, caving gear is expensive; many people can't afford it. Lots of people get into caving at university, but access to higher education is extremely limited and as a result the discriminatory access to this also has implications in the wider context of UK caving.
As a new female caver I had to feel comfortable asking questions like - how do I cave on my period? what do I do if I start my period whilst caving? I had to learn a lot of this the hard way (don't wear a sanitary towel caving was something I learnt on my first ever trip).
Extensive progress has been made within UK caving regarding gender equality and accessibility, especially thanks to things like the women's caving weekend; female caving facebook groups, and blog posts about caving on your period (thanks Elise! <3). However, as with everything there will always be *more* room for progress, and the nature of a society so deeply ingrained with internalised misogyny & internalised toxic masculinity means that we will always be constantly finding new areas for improvement... which can partially be achieved by self-reflection, taking accountability, and listening + supporting the voices and work of female, LGBTQ+, BAME, etc, cavers.
This project is an example of one of the many great ways of doing that.
Thanks for reading my mini-essay XD xox
I don't think it's undermining at all, and certainly a 'daft and sexist question' as the Old Ruminator suggested... while I appreciate the benefits of a critical approach to discussions, and without wanting to sound overly harsh, I do wonder what makes a male caver more qualified to decide what is 'sexist' or not than a female caver.
I'm a young female caver, having started caving just over two years ago now and am now president of Newcastle University Caving Club, and I don't find the suggestions of inspirational female cavers ('lists' as it has been referred to) intimidating at all, rather it is really nice and indeed inspiring to hear about other women that have committed to and excelled in a sport that I love.
Although I know plenty of female cavers now, and am grateful that my male caving friends are very respectful, supportive and non-patronising, within the history of caving there is still a dominant male presence - not only because female cavers were accepted much more recently, but also because no comprehensive history of the growth in female cavers has been assembled or discussed at any length. Paying recognition to the achievements of present-day female cavers is subsequently a worthy effort to reconcile this.
While you might suggest that caving itself is a discrimination-haven whereby 'everyone is accepted' the truth is that wider socio-economic boundaries are still, to an extent, transferred to the caving world as with all other outdoor sports too. For example, caving gear is expensive; many people can't afford it. Lots of people get into caving at university, but access to higher education is extremely limited and as a result the discriminatory access to this also has implications in the wider context of UK caving.
As a new female caver I had to feel comfortable asking questions like - how do I cave on my period? what do I do if I start my period whilst caving? I had to learn a lot of this the hard way (don't wear a sanitary towel caving was something I learnt on my first ever trip
). Extensive progress has been made within UK caving regarding gender equality and accessibility, especially thanks to things like the women's caving weekend; female caving facebook groups, and blog posts about caving on your period (thanks Elise! <3). However, as with everything there will always be *more* room for progress, and the nature of a society so deeply ingrained with internalised misogyny & internalised toxic masculinity means that we will always be constantly finding new areas for improvement... which can partially be achieved by self-reflection, taking accountability, and listening + supporting the voices and work of female, LGBTQ+, BAME, etc, cavers.
This project is an example of one of the many great ways of doing that.
Thanks for reading my mini-essay XD xox
ChrisJC
Well-known member
My starting point in all of these discussions is to swap the gender in the original request:
Then I consider what might be the reaction if that were the genuine request.
If I consider that it would be a neutral response, then it would seem fair and reasonable. If I consider that it would create howls of protest, then I have to think long and hard about whether the outcome justifies the bias.
In this case, I decided to ignore it, as any publicity for caving is good, irrespective of what equipment the individuals in question keep in their underwear, and irrespective of who they get between the sheets with.
As for toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, please, what? If a caving club has barriers to entry for any group, then they need to be highlighted and dismantled. They are illegal anyway. Invoking all of this SJW mumbo jumbo divides us, it does not unite us.
Chris.
Then I consider what might be the reaction if that were the genuine request.
If I consider that it would be a neutral response, then it would seem fair and reasonable. If I consider that it would create howls of protest, then I have to think long and hard about whether the outcome justifies the bias.
In this case, I decided to ignore it, as any publicity for caving is good, irrespective of what equipment the individuals in question keep in their underwear, and irrespective of who they get between the sheets with.
As for toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, please, what? If a caving club has barriers to entry for any group, then they need to be highlighted and dismantled. They are illegal anyway. Invoking all of this SJW mumbo jumbo divides us, it does not unite us.
Chris.
A_Northerner
Active member
ChrisJC said:
Men don't need a platform in order to promote their views. As shown by this thread they're more than comfortable with making their uninformed opinions known without needing assistance.