Is it ok to "hard lock" a Stop or Simple in the way not shown in the technical document?

[hannahb]

I know we've discussed this before, so apologies for raising it again, but I would find some clarity useful.

The technical notices for both the new-style Stop and the Simple only give locking off instructions for when the braking carabiner is integral with the attachment carabiner. They don't give instructions for locking off with a separate braking carabiner.

Most people I go caving with don't have that integrated set up, and in particular most beginner cavers I go caving with don't.

I went caving at the weekend with one person who had an integrated braking & attachment carabiner, and they put the rope through the braking carabiner several times as their hard lock. As far as I could tell it matched what is given in the technical notices. The other person with us was less experienced, had an old-style stop, and did their "hard lock" by doing the usual soft lock, then passing a twisted bight of rope over the Stop, pulling it tight, and that was it. Is that ok?

I have a Simple and a separate braking carabiner. I do a soft lock, then pass a bight through the attachment carabiner and over the Simple. Most people I cave with do the same. Is there a reason Petzl wouldn't show this on the documentation?

I experimented with the "round and round through the braking carabiner" way and somehow unhitched all the rope from the braking carabiner which was alarming so I won't be doing that again.

 

[jwtbids]

I went caving at the weekend with one person who had an integrated braking & attachment carabiner, and they put the rope through the braking carabiner several times as their hard lock. As far as I could tell it matched what is given in the technical notices

I have heard this referred to as a 'Swiss lock' (see Derek Bristol's video on bobbin descenders) and is described in Petzl's technical notice on a Frieno braking carabiner. I have similarly tried to use it on a Raumer Handy and found it incredibly faffy to lock/unlock off on anything except exceptionally skinny rope. Furthermore, I have had the exact same experience of all dead rope become detached from the braking carabiner in attempting to unlock the descender, so don't think I will be using this method (at least on a Handy) anymore.

I can't speak to the method of twisting/putting a bight over (without first passing it through the attachment carabiner) as I've never seen this.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

If this is what you meant I've tried the approach below and it's a pain in the proverbial as you can unclip both ropesvwhen unlocking. I think could be safe as a soft lockoffmanaged carefully but just pushing a bight through the main part of the krab is not much more hassle. You might see me doing it sometimes, maybe

 

[hannahb]

If this is what you meant I've tried the approach below and it's a pain in the proverbial but I think could be safe as a very soft soft lockoff maybe.. if managed carefully but not worth doing as the standard lockoff is less hassle and more secure. I don't use it, tried and rejected

It's supposed to have one more soft lock added, but yes this is what I mean.

 

[hannahb]

I have heard this referred to as a 'Swiss lock' (see Derek Bristol's video on bobbin descenders) and is described in Petzl's technical notice on a Frieno braking carabiner. I have similarly tried to use it on a Raumer Handy and found it incredibly faffy to lock/unlock off on anything except exceptionally skinny rope. Furthermore, I have had the exact same experience of all dead rope become detached from the braking carabiner in attempting to unlock the descender, so don't think I will be using this method (at least on a Handy) anymore.

I can't speak to the method of twisting/putting a bight over (without first passing it through the attachment carabiner) as I've never seen this.

Glad it's not just me who ballsed it up

 

[andrewmcleod]

I have a Simple and a separate braking carabiner. I do a soft lock, then pass a bight through the attachment carabiner and over the Simple. Most people I cave with do the same. Is there a reason Petzl wouldn't show this on the documentation?

This is always OK, and I think as close to 'standard' as anything is in caving.

Various possible reasons:
1) they want you to buy a Freino
2) they don't want to open the 'what braking carabiner' can of worms
3) they are French (an explanation for many odd practices - if it works, it works?)

The pre-2019 Stop manual doesn't show the use of a braking carabiner in most of the manual; only in one section 'additional braking' and thus doesn't show how to lock off if also using a braking carabiner. It shows two lock offs - one that is less popular today where you just tuck the rope under the handle and throw it over the back ('short duration tie-off') and the 'normal' bight through the attachment crab and over the top. The former method probably doesn't really work with the new handle version.
Old Stop manual: https://www.petzl.co.jp/download/pdf/ifu/D09.pdf

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Edit my original post as I'm suddenly remembering doing it sometimes

 

[andrewmcleod]

Petzl has a guide:

Tying off the STOP descender - Petzl Other

www.petzl.com

but note that the 'rapid tie off' here is *only* suitable when slippage is not dangerous i.e. you should *not* do it except at the bottom of a rebelay loop or similar. I think the old 'under the handle' technique is probably OK as a 'proper' lock off; the 'half lock' of just throwing the dead rope over the top is definitely not.

I do actually do 'clipping into the Freino a few times' when my Rig doesn't want to lock up since it's not really an ideal shape to do the 'normal' bight lock off (sort of works, can be dislodged). I don't see how you can accidentally unclip both strands in that case since you unclip it by clipping it again (if that makes any sense) rather than opening the carabiner manually and pulling a loose strand out?

From the top of the document:

Rapid or complete tie-offs can be done in very different ways: only the most conventional ones are presented in this document.

 

[moorfurlong]

Not sure 100% where you can find them now , but Petzl had all the different ways they suggested locking off old stop and new stop, simples, with frenio and without frenio but with friction krab on the device.