Jean Pot

[andrewmcleod]

Went down Jean Pot yesterday. Lovely trip: a few awkward rift climbs, a bit of crawling (but not masses), a couple of awkward pitch heads, and some spits of mixed vintage. Some don't screw in all the way and sometimes there isn't one just where you want it at the pitch head (although I think I only missed one in the roof above the fourth pitch pitch-head), but with a few extra naturals and a bit of care you can nearly always get a rub-free descent backed up by at least one or two things (even if they are all a bit dubious).

I'd suggest bringing some extra spits, slings/dyneema and carabiners than what the black book recommends, although for some reason the traverse has an in situ rope so you save a few spits on that. Slightly longer ropes might be useful in a few places as well (if you want to use more anchors/further back anchors).

There was also an unusual bolt and hanger combination in situ on the second pitch, which I think the derigger removed, screwed into possibly the worst-placed spit I've seen (a third hanging out and about 30° from perpendicular...) although I still used it in combination with the spike described in NftFH (as it gave a rub-free descent and we were on 8 mm, 8.5 mm and 9 mm ropes).

But on the surface, what the hell are these three anchors?

I mean, I used them since there were three of them, it's only really a traverse line to get to the actual pitch head spike, and the NftFH 'rock in the shakhole' didn't look particularly bombproof either, but I have very little faith that they are 'good' anchors.

And yes, I know you shouldn't tie straight into plate hangers, but I didn't know that I would have enough carabiners to get to the bottom and it was the first of three anchors, so I made a risk assessment that the odds of two of the hangers popping out, and then the third holding but the plate hanger cutting the rope, on a rope that people weren't supposed to be hanging on, was pretty small...

 

[andrewmcleod]

So you've got a Petzl 10mm hanger (316 stainless). You've then got the (304/A2 stainless) hex-head bolt(?) made by Vertical Evolution (an Italian company; we use their stainless hangers but I can't find anything on their website that looks like that. [edit - it's not Vertical Evolution; the logo is very similar but the other way round]. There is a washer between the bolt and the hanger, which suggests that the hex head is intended to be turned (I mean having a hex head suggests that anyway of course).

I'd originally assumed they were concrete screws; obviously I don't approve of people sticking concrete screws in Dales caves like this in general but could be worse, and at least better from a conservation point of view as they could be drilled out and replaced with resins.

That's when I noticed that there was resin behind the hanger. WTF? Suddenly I have zero faith in the installer; someone using resin on a bolt in a hole is likely to not really know what they are doing; do I trust them to properly clean out the hole etc.? (plus of course the combination is likely to be untested).

But I'm making the assumption this is probably an ordinary M10 bolt that has been stuck in with resin for some reason. From my experience of using resin on a threaded eyebolt (for locking up a cave - *not* for life support!) I strongly suspect the bolt will just unscrew (and, entertainingly, you can often screw it back into the 'threads' in the resin ).

 

[andrewmcleod]

Final comment - I note that Jean Pot is approved for CNCC anchors (and it's just a case of waiting for an installer to be free/keen/willing). I think resin anchors will probably increase some of the rope lengths by 3/4m but will make the cave much nicer to rig and much less reliant on slowly decaying and dubious spits
(I am a resin anchor installer, but not a CNCC one, so can't help here )

 

[hannahb]

Interesting! Thanks for the nice write up.

Apparently some concrete screws are provided with resin for installation.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I knew I'd seen that logo before - some of my spit bolts have the same logo on...

Once I'd got a better image of the logo to throw into Google Images, it looks like it's a very generic manufacturer of bolts, e.g.:

https://www.diy.com/departments/stainless-steel-set-screw-m8-x-40-din-933-grade-a2-pack-of-50/5016720210198_BQ.prd

Assortment Box of Stainless Steel Set Screws - Metric

www.workshopwarehouse.co.uk

HEXAGON HEAD BOLT DIN 931 STAINLESS STEEL A2 MIN.50 DIN 931 M30X200 (DC) | eBay UK

Extra infoDIN 931. Thread directionRight. Head shapeHexagon head. 8xd are minimal property class 50. MaterialStainless steel. Material technicalA2.

www.ebay.co.uk

UNF Hex Head Setscrews ASME B18.2.1 in A4 Stainless Steel - Westfield Fasteners Ltd

UNF Hex Head Setscrews ASME B18.2.1 in A4 Stainless Steel. Also know as a Set Screw or simply a Bolt or, in the US, a Tap Bolt. Purchase in box or sachet quantity.

www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk

So I reckon they are probably just ordinary M10 bolts...

 

[georgenorth]

Definitely a bit weird! The only reason I can think to do this would be to stop people pinching the hangers. You could probably unthread the set screw from the resin with a decent sized bar though!

 

[andrewmcleod]

Definitely a bit weird! The only reason I can think to do this would be to stop people pinching the hangers. You could probably unthread the set screw from the resin with a decent sized bar though!

I suspect so (on the unscrewing; even a big spanner is probably enough), and then hopefully the holes can be redrilled for resin anchors in the future. In the interim I would encourage people to assume they are not very strong!

 

[Lankyman]

That resin behind the hangers looks (to a non-expert) a bit like the sika product I've seen used on some sport climb bolts at various crags in the Dales. I've no idea if it's still used nowadays. Bolting climbs seemed to be a rather individual thing rather than a regional body like CNCC.

 

[georgenorth]

It could be any one of 50 types of (probably polyester) resin.

If the bolts don’t move then I’d definitely use them, but it’s not the sort of thing that should be encouraged. The CNCC scheme has been a great thing (compared to the free-for-all in climbing).

 

[Occasional Borderer]

I suspect so (on the unscrewing; even a big spanner is probably enough), and then hopefully the holes can be redrilled for resin anchors in the future. In the interim I would encourage people to assume they are not very strong!

To be fair resin and bolt doesn't have much effect on strength when loaded as expected, you aren't pulling the anchor "out" unless you lean back a hell of a lot

 

[hannahb]

So are they bolts in spits? With resin? Or just bolts in holes?

 

[hannahb]

Also that first hanger is at an interesting angle

 

[Cantclimbtom]

So are they bolts in spits? With resin? Or just bolts in holes?

There's no way to know unless one is removed or the original installer clarifies.

I don't endorse whatever method is used or rogue bolting, and it's a good advert for coordinated and trained bolting (e.g. CNCC scheme) but one thing to flavour discussion is the installer went to time trouble and expense for other's benefit (they could've just used standard anchors and taken the hangers home). They were trying to help...

 

[Lankyman]

I knew I'd seen that logo before - some of my spit bolts have the same logo on...

View attachment 25190
Once I'd got a better image of the logo to throw into Google Images, it looks like ....

.... the fluttery heart symbol Rockfax uses in their guides for a serious/dodgy/runout route?

 

[andrewmcleod]

So are they bolts in spits? With resin? Or just bolts in holes?

Too big for normal spits as I think they are M10 (although you can get equivalent non-self-drilling drive ins in larger diameters).

 

[ChrisB]

There's a comment from @topcat, in CNCC's thread about Jean Pot being in the list for anchoring, that the spits were all good in May 2024.

Re epoxy behind the hangers, on the practice wall on the side of my house I used stainless shield anchors with M8 hex bolts. I'm confident of their capacity but found that movement of the hanger could start to unscrew the bolt, so epoxied the hangers to stop that movement.

 

[topcat]

What an interesting thread !

To those not familiar with JP, the rest of the cave [6 pitches] are all on spits or naturals. The natural on P3 has been replaced at least twice in the last ten years [ie it fell out twice!], and I have been on two trips elsewhere in the last two years where naturals have failed. There are two roof anchors here negating the need for the transient natural........

The point being it is rather amusing to read of the consternation 3 resin anchors have generated given that most of the critical spits in the cave date back to the 1980's ! It must have been really stressful dropping P7 on the single spit.......

I hope for conservation reasons these anchors are left as is. Removing them will only cause scarring.
If you don't like them, use the NFTFH alternative, the big block. Same rope length, but the block gives lots of rub and direction of the run of the rope isn't helpful when coming out.
The OP did the right thing: assessed the anchors and deemed them ok. We all do this with every anchor, right?? CNCC make the point very forcibly: the caver needs to make their own judgement of any anchor, whether on their [excellent] scheme or not.

Quick aside: direct ties to hangers is perfectly Ok, but with caveats........See Alan Wardle's Vertical . The tie-in as above is fine, but as SS plate hangers tend to be be quite sharp don't use them for a hangs, use ring, or alloy plates, perhaps with edges filed if you are fussy. Tests show that when rigged direct the rope breaks where it always breaks: at the knot.

All components on those anchors are SS and certainly not just bolts glued in.
Installer was trained [some years ago] when working in the construction.
Resin will have been from Fischer because it was a team from Fischer who did the said training. I could probably find out which resin.
'Excess' resin behind the hangers does indeed inhibit rotation as Chris points out above.
They are somewhat over kill considering what is below them, and undoubtably the most secure anchors in the cave , even allowing for the surface environment.

Bonus aside: at the Balcony go L to find back up spit and a Y hang in the small hanging rift. This gives a free hang to the floor, avoiding the loose blocks and [truncated] straws encountered/damaged by following the good book's R

Back to the earlier point: if you find these disconcerting the rest of the rigging will be really challenging!

 

[topcat]

I've just noticed the OP's comment about the Book's block in the shakehole ..........I recall this as being huge and totally bombproof. Maybe we were looking at different pieces of rock?

 

[andrewmcleod]

The point being it is rather amusing to read of the consternation 3 resin anchors have generated given that most of the critical spits in the cave date back to the 1980's ! It must have been really stressful dropping P7 on the single spit.......

I'm still not at all convinced they _are_ resin anchors.

I hope for conservation reasons these anchors are left as is. Removing them will only cause scarring.

Fortunately I would be very surprised if they don't just unscrew without too much effort, and the holes can then be redrilled for resin anchors in the future. Bonding of resin to stainless is very minimal (it's all mechanical).

All components on those anchors are SS and certainly not just bolts glued in.

I can't see why a resin anchor of any kind would have a hex head? Generally the last thing you want to do with a resin anchor is rotate it (the one exception, I guess, is when using the glass ampoules where rotating to mix, sometimes with a drill, is required as inserting the anchor and smashing the ampoule, but I doubt this is the case here).

Installer was trained [some years ago] when working in the construction.
Resin will have been from Fischer because it was a team from Fischer who did the said training. I could probably find out which resin.

I would be much more interested to find out what the anchors/bolts are than what the resin is.

'Excess' resin behind the hangers does indeed inhibit rotation as Chris points out above.
They are somewhat over kill considering what is below them, and undoubtably the most secure anchors in the cave , even allowing for the surface environment.

This is probably true but the bar is low...

Bonus aside: at the Balcony go L to find back up spit and a Y hang in the small hanging rift. This gives a free hang to the floor, avoiding the loose blocks and [truncated] straws encountered/damaged by following the good book's R

This is what I did; saw no reason for the rebelay so I didn't rig it.

Back to the earlier point: if you find these disconcerting the rest of the rigging will be really challenging!

It's not so much the _difficulty_ of the rigging of these; it's just that you don't really know what they are which means you _can't_ really do a reasonable risk assessment. They might be 100m M10 bolts in which case they are _probably_ fine (after all, resin-ing threaded bar is fairly standard and that's almost the same thing) but equally they might be 30mm deep, or they might even be sleeve anchors or something daft.

 

[topcat]

Bonus aside: at the Balcony go L to find back up spit and a Y hang in the small hanging rift. This gives a free hang to the floor, avoiding the loose blocks and [truncated] straws encountered/damaged by following the good book's R

This is what I did; saw no reason for the rebelay so I didn't rig it.

........There isn't a rebelay on the LH route......two long reach spits in the roof/rift give a free hang.


Not knowing what you really have is a common situation in in-situ anchors but we use 'em anyway.......
I know of some cavers who just wont clip anything other than an official CNCC anchor ! Rather limiting their caving opportunities.