Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy

[Ian Holmes]

What's wrong with being fast ... it may even promote conservation as you're not in the cave for as long!

 

[Clive G]

What's wrong with being fast ... it may even promote conservation as you're not in the cave for as long!

Well, not everyone is capable of going so fast and even you will one day find that it is not possible to meet such timings any more - similar to diving through Terminal Sump.

Having caved from the Daren Cilau quarry entrance to the end of Beyond Time in 1 hr 40 mins in 1987, I reckon that I was possibly going at a faster rate than your 2 hr timing to the Hard Rock Cafe - but I do know just how fast I was caving then, to set such a record.

 

[whitelackington]

Is there an on line survey of Draenen?

 

[langcliffe]

Is there an on line survey of Draenen?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=survey+draenen&ie=UTF-8

 

[John S]

The real question I set was, should the third entrance be used to push the far reaches of Dreanen or do you camp? Or ban both?

Maybe I need to put it plainer and not be a devil's advocate on this subject. I am in favour of the third entrance and pro actual consevation measures put into the cave.
Those setting up this camp are anti extra entrances on consevation grounds. So I was asking them to justify setting up a camp instead of using the third entrance to cut travel times down to their dig sites.
They may find then that there was no need to camp, with all the extra baggage that entails if they did use it, but that would justify the third entrance. 
Is this camp just to try and justify a single entrance policy and hoping they will come out in a few days (if this camp really is going to happen and it not just a rumour) with quite a bit of passage in the bag.
So I could set out pros and cons of camping (and no im not anti camping, just I would not repeat some I have done in the past) but I'm sure others can set them out, and think of many more reasons than I can.

 

[Imo]

Hi John,

Who exactly is setting up a camp?

Is there currently a no camping policy - I wasn't aware of one.

If you think there should be a no camping policy - then you'll need to propose a motion at the next meeting -  propose it for the agenda formally, I would have thought.

 

[John S]

Who exactly is setting up a camp?

Is there currently a no camping policy - I wasn't aware of one.

If you think there should be a no camping policy - then you'll need to propose a motion at the next meeting -  propose it for the agenda formally, I would have thought.

A strong rumour so no names but I have an idea or two. Even if it is only a rumour, the subject is a good one to discuss as the PDCMG policy on camping is used as part of the single entrance policy.

"This method of operation (camping) is certainly preferable to the opening of additional entrances as a means of shortening journey times as the these have been shown in OFD and other caves to have a very serious long term detrimental effect on the cave and once opened are very difficult to close. The opening of additional entrances also has an unknown effect on drafts and hence on bat roosts and probably on many other features with in the cave."

"PDCMG Policy on Camps bivouacs and brew stops.

The above are permitted as they are an effective means of working efficiently within the further reaches of the cave and are a less damaging alternative to opening additional entrances. They should be kept as small as possible, be completely removed as soon as their useful life span is over and adhere to the following guidelines."

An open discussion here would give a good idea of this subject and should the two be linked in the way the PDCMG Conservation Policy does?

 

[Imo]

A strong rumour so no names but I have an idea or two.

Well if its a rumour and you don't know much about it - then why say:

why do I hear that some of the very pro single entrance people are setting up a six day camp in the cave. They seem to have used the numerous students around last weekend for the uni bash to carry a lot of gear into the cave

You either know whose camp it is or you don't. How do you know it wasn't the uni students using a person that knows the cave well (and happens to be pro single entrance) to help them out on their dig/camp. Quite a few new Uni students have been showing a really keen interest in new digs at the end of Draenen recently. I think its great. They are capable, and maybe they want to camp.

Like I say I don't know, I wasn't around Draenen last weekend, but its an alternative to the scenario you have suggested.

 

[John S]

Wait and see, but in the mean time let us see if its a good policy or flawed, now that a third entrance exists.

 

[Clive G]

Wait and see, but in the mean time let us see if its a good policy or flawed, now that a third entrance exists.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all I've read so far suggests that a hole has been knocked through into Ogof Draenen from the surface, prior to a 'new entrance' policy being agreed. I mean a burglar with a crowbar could do that to your house whilst you're away from home couldn't they?

As far as I'm aware a 'merits test' is being applied to this hole by the Cave Management Group, but calling it a third entrance at present somewhat presupposes the outcome of the 'merits test', doesn't it?

 

[Imo]

Wait and see, but in the mean time let us see if its a good policy or flawed, now that a third entrance exists.

Aye, lets not jump to conclusions.
Honestly this forum is being used to stir things up and its totally counter-productive.

I really don't see how a new entrance that shaves an hour or so off journey time in one direction is going to affect anyone's decision to camp - that will surely have far more to do with wanting several days sustained digging. I think its great that anybody is committed enough to a dig to give it that amount of time and effort.

People who want a single entrance have good reasons for that
People who want to use the new entrance have good reasons for that

I cave with people who hold both opinions.

 

[Alkapton]

Sometimes reading some comments about 'speed caving', camping underground and the like I get a little paranoid there is a secret conspiracy to keep me or people like me out of caves.

When I was shocked by Steve Waters recenct claim in a bar that he and a friend who had broken ribs got from Cairn Junction to the surface in just 17 minuites, I saw the expresion on his face when I said it takes me 2 hours to get from Cairn Junction to the surface - the expression was 'unique'.  Actually its more like 2 1/4 hours if I don't push it.

I'm slow there is no getting away from that.  I'm slow because I'm careful, arthritis (actually ocronosis alkaptonuria - not normal arthritis) means I can't move as easily as 'normal' people, and its easy for me to damage tendons and ligaments if I over strain them.  I think that means I'm less likely to damage a cave than someone who insists on caving at warp factor 5.  I also get to appreciate the places I'm in much more than if I were fast.

I'm comfortable with my speed, others probably would not be comfortable going at my speed and I appreciate and understand that.

It does mean if I ever want to see the far reaches of Draenen I will have to camp in there for a few nights at a time.  Unfortunately that is not possible at this time because I have no baby sitter for my dogs.  But I am seriosly contemplating such a trip.  Of course in doing so I'll ask the PDCMG and tell them where I intend to camp.  I think that is the way it should be.

There are extremly fast cavers out there who pride themselves on the spped they can cave at.  As long as they are still able to respect delicate bits of cave I have no problem with that attitude although it is impossible for me to share it.

Most cavers are not speed cavers and should definately not be criticised by their faster brethren.

Then there is me.  Quit happy going at a snails pace, I'll get there eventually.  Any faster it will hurt for days.  But I think I and any like me should feel encouraged rather than unwelcome (not the right word, not how I feel but can't think of better word) in caves.

There is definately a place for camping in caves but the location(s) must be chosen with care.  If a single location can serve three days of exploring different parts of a cave it is better than three different locations.  Impact on the cave must be minimal.  With care this is possible.

 

[NigR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all I've read so far suggests that a hole has been knocked through into Ogof Draenen from the surface......

.....but calling it a third entrance at present somewhat presupposes the outcome....

You are wrong.

Drws Cefn was dug. Drws Cefn was extended. One of the passages connected with Draenen. Therefore Drws Cefn is now a third (or possibly fourth) entrance. Like it or not, it exists.

 

[Clive G]

You are wrong.

. . .

Given the forcefulness of your approach on the subject of new entrances, initially launched under the cover of a Balaclava - over which I picked you up after others in your circle had made the clandestine operation known to me, have you ever stopped to consider that what you have done may be wrong?

 

[NigR]

Given the forcefulness of your approach on the subject of new entrances, initially launched under the cover of a Balaclava...

Here we go again. Luv it every time.

Were you there? No.

Therefore, don't talk about something you know nothing about.

.....over which I picked you up after others in your circle had made the clandestine operation known to me....

I told you to mind your own business then so I'll say the same now (just as Martyn Farr did when I told him you thought you should be informed about his dig in Aggy - after he'd stopped laughing that is).

.....have you ever stopped to consider that what you have done may be wrong?

Wrong in what sense? Apart from not obtaining permission to dig underground (just like nobody else ever bothers to do) we did nothing wrong at all. We went digging. We found some new passage. We joined one cave to another. All of which you find 'objectionable', but then you would wouldn't you?

 

[exsumper]

 

[Clive G]

Combative - which is how I'd describe your approach (as a visitor to my club's hut, White Walls) in answer to my question as to why you let me down badly over the walk that I'd hoped we'd have been able to do together in the Preseli Mountains during early July this year. You offered to show me the site of some standing stones, which you said you knew about there. But, after I arrived on the top of Llangattock Mountain, almost entirely by foot and public transport from East London, I still haven't forgotten how your apparently genuine preference for watersurfing switched to weasel words over the weather - which actually turned out perfect for mountain walking on the Sunday.

Was it breaking into Ogof Draenen or shaking up formations in Ogof Capel which you expected me to assist you with instead?

I'm sorry to have to say this, but in recent months you have come over - Mr NigR - as being more fired up by the disharmony and misery you stir up amongst your fellow cave explorers than by the appreciation and sharing of the beauty of mountains and caves.

Perhaps it is because you are now really a watersurfer at heart, but have some axe to grind from past years, may well be a just complaint - yet woe betide anyone who may dare step in your path in the process, friend or foe alike - before moving on?

 

[NigR]

Clive,

Nobody let you down in July, only your own totally unrealistic expectations.

Nobody expected you to assist with anything ('breaking into' a cave - are you serious?).

You just don't get the message, do you? You are far too odd for me and I want nothing to do with you. Is that clear enough?

(WTF is 'watersurfing'? Too, too weird.)

 

[Clive G]

Clive,

Nobody let you down in July, only your own totally unrealistic expectations.

. . .

I think you've just walked into a hole of your own making.

Now look at this extract from a posting made in the SWCC section of the forum under 'PDCMG meeting: Draenen access' a few months back:

It now feels that the whole question of opening the "Second" entrance was a smoke screen.
. . .

It may be of interest to those of you digging (or maybe now entering Draenen) up on Gilwern Hill that certain other SWCC members live on the Hill and they are watching you (for example, those of you who were up there on Wednesday the 8th of July).

. . .

And then this reply given by you:

Pete,

. . .

Just out of interest (although it really is none of your business), my wife and I were up on Gilwern Hill on the date you mention. So maybe it was us that you saw? You should have come over and said hello rather than simply spying from somewhere in the undergrowth. Nice evening wasn't it?

And why were we there ?

Because we had been asked by the Cambrian Caving Council's Conservation and Access Officer to go and take a look around on the ground in light of the current rumours concerning other entrances.

And what did we find?

Well, you'll never know now, will you?

Well, when I had telephone conversations with you on 30th June, 3rd July and 4th July to make arrangements for my visit to South Wales, with the expectation of meeting up with you, if you were not away watersurfing, what we agreed is that I would call you on the Wednesday evening, when I arrived, before you intended to go away watersurfing. And what we agreed is that you would let me know whether you would be away on the weekend or around for walking in the mountains.

Now, as part of the arrangement that we made, I gave you my mobile telephone number which I had switched on when I arrived at White Walls, late on the Wednesday afternoon. The only problem was that when I called your number a little while later your telephone at home rang and rang, but there was no reply. What's more, whenever you did come back home, from wherever you'd been, you didn't even have the courtesy to return my call. Then, the following morning, when I did finally manage to speak to you on the 'phone, you sheepishly pretended that although you had picked up on having received a call the night before, when you returned home, you didn't know who the call was from . . . which struck me as being extremely odd at the time. You gave no indication as to why you'd been out on the night when we agreed to chat.

So, what I say to you is, when a friend - as I was when I arrived in South Wales on the Wednesday evening - arranges to meet up with you at White Walls and you vehemently complain afterwards about having to come over from where you live (driven by someone else I hasten to add) in spite of having previously volunteered to do so, don't go furtively snooping around across the gorge at the back of the same mountain on some clandestine business at the same time and expect to get off scot-free with it.

There has been a blatant deception going on here, although I somewhat naively and more generously used the word 'misled' at White Walls on the Sunday afterwards.

I am of course referring to the evening of Wednesday 8th July 2009 as so indeed were you in your very informative posting.

If this is how you treat people when they have regarded you as being a friend, then I'm utterly speechless.

 

[NigR]

........then I'm utterly speechless.

Unfortunately you are not, that is the problem.

It's all in your mind. We made a vague plan that we might meet up if you came to Wales, nothing more.

Very, very odd.

For the last time, Clive, you are no friend of mine and I want no part of your strange obsessions.