Light to use with digital camera

On a recent trip to the Bath Stone Mines with some friends from Sub. Brit. I observed them using a powerful bicycle lamp to light paint. My club have expressed a wish to purchase a light for this purpose and I ask for advice as to whether this sort is the best option and if not, what do you suggest? Not the hyper-expensive super-nova-type lamps, though.
Thanks
Chris
 

Tony_B

Member
Chris, try your local Tesco. They do a couple of Maglite-style LED torches, from memory the AA version is about ?9 and the C-cell version about ?12. I use the latter as a bike light, attached to the handlebars, and it's as good as the very expensive ones from proper bike shops. Someone has already written about them on UKC before.

You might find  the beam a bit narrow for 'light painting' but you could try sanding the glass.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Since I presume you will only want the light for a short period of time, would one of those "million candle power" rechargeable spotlights be any good?
 

Burt

New member
Chris; I have a copy of "what mountain bike" which has a reveiw of about 15 different light sets, if you want it. Having looked at the above link from Andy morgan, that light looks like a bargain for the output / price / duration. Think I might have one myself!
 

Rob

Well-known member
I have used these http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22569 quite a lot for light painting and for half the price of the bike light option they really are a bargain. Make sure you get the "Orange Peel" reflector style to widen the beam. I have also used the Tesco light, as previously mentioned, and also like the size and usability (the price mostly) of it.

But as long as your camera is pretty good you can just about light up any sized cave with a crappy light using a long exposure. It all just takes a bit of time and experimenting.  (y)

Not good for group/people/fun shots though, for that you'd be better off with a flash gun...
 

Burt

New member
So it's finally arrived after over a month wait:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22569

I can confirm:
a) It's ridiculously bright, even more so than my HID bike light
b) It was cheap as chips - even after buying the adaptor to run US charger on UK outlets
c) It's well put together
d) It's small and lightweight - the lamphead is as big as a small egg, the battery 70x35x35mm.

You may find problems mounting it on a helmet as it's made for a bike handlebar, but a few zipties and a little fabrication would work. I'm not sure yet about the watertightness or runtimes but will post these when I find out.

sheesh, its bright!
 

footleg

New member
Since my post above I've done some asking and much reading on Candlepower forums. It appears that these single cell P7 LED torches do not run the LED at anything like full brightness. So they will not be outputting the 900 lumens claimed in the specs on dealextreme website. The voltage, current and cell capacity do not add up to the quoted run time for full brightness. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has access to both the hand held single cell torch and the 4 cell P7 bike lamp (mine has not arrived yet to an internal error in the ordering system at dealextreme, only resolved after they were out of stock). When I get mine I will do some comparisons with my home made P7 LED photography lights which I know are running the LED at full power and post the information here.

For pages and pages of talk about the bike light version, see here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=232163
 

robjones

New member
Rob said:
as long as your camera is pretty good you can just about light up any sized cave with a crappy light using a long exposure. It all just takes a bit of time and experimenting 

No idea what happens with digital but with film, really long exposures when painting with light suffer from recipricocity (spelling?) failure - the emusion fogs due to light bouncing between the layers of the film and less and less light gets registered on the emulsion, needing an even longer exposure, which fogs it even more - etc.

Longest painting session I tried was 40 mins with a car fog light (and car battery) in an enormous slate mine chamber, painting from 2 or 3 positions. It worked but recipricocity failure made the film very red - even more than expected  from the red wavelength of the foglight. 

 

Rob

Well-known member
Not really sure what recipricocity is, but i've never had similar problems with long exposures on digital cameras. Having said that, the longest i've ever needed underground is probably only 30 seconds or so, using lights like what Burt has.


Just a quick look on Flickr i found this 30 minute shot taken at night with just moonlight:
3050755004_ac34c81312.jpg

This was using a digital camera at ISO50, F5.
 

shotlighter

Active member
Ok not the biggest passage in the world but this was taken using a Tesco 2xC cell torch with a 15s exposure on a compact.
set-72157622976528172

:confused:
 

Rob

Well-known member
Shotlighter, when linking to pics on Flickr you've got to go to "all sizes" at the top of the page and use one of those.
4174715625_9a52146cb9.jpg

Cool pic, btw. Never seen a mine passage with twisted walls like that!!!
 

jarvist

New member
robjones said:
No idea what happens with digital but with film, really long exposures when painting with light suffer from recipricocity (spelling?) failure - the emusion fogs due to light bouncing between the layers of the film and less and less light gets registered on the emulsion, needing an even longer exposure, which fogs it even more - etc.

Longest painting session I tried was 40 mins with a car fog light (and car battery) in an enormous slate mine chamber, painting from 2 or 3 positions. It worked but recipricocity failure made the film very red - even more than expected  from the red wavelength of the foglight.

Reciprocity failure is simply where the linear relationship between exposure time and light level breaks down - so you calculate you need 2x the exposure, but actually you need 3x. It's in the film data sheet, generally it kicks in at above 1s. It's caused by the fact that at very low light levels the quantum nature of light becomes important - you need a certain number of photons within a small amount of time to 'set' the silver halide crystals, and at low light fluxes you suddenly have the poisson statistics of the arriving photons to deal with.
So, that's fine with B&W - you just increase the exposure, and accept that any high lights will be very strong.
With colour - colour print in particular, the degree of reciprocity failure is different in the different colour levels (as the coloured gels are messing with the number of available photons). Generally this gives a very strong _green_ colour cast to the long exposure. Different films from different manufacturers react differently, and you can try and use filters to correct for this. In my experience, Fuji Superia seems to give a not-too-horrific green cast.

However, one of the nice things with film is that you can flash-paint. There's no 'noise' penalty to pay for very long exposure, and each individual flash 'burns' its own bit of the latent image. You can use reciprocity failure to your advantage, in that the relatively dim head lights of the painters won't show

With a digital camera, on long exposure, what you are actually doing is taking a long series of short-exposure shots into memory, then doing a Laplacian transform (this is why the camera goes 'BUSY' for a while after the shot is taken before showing the image). The individual shots are vastly underexposed and mainly noise. The laplacian allows the camera to identify the correlated information between frames (the image) while getting rid of the uncorrelated information between frames (the noise). However, this hits problems when the exposure changes (i.e. light painting). Some cameras have better algorithms than others.

You're typically limited to 15/30s max exposure on a consumer digital camera.

To go beyond this limit you need to start thinking about using RAW, taking dark frames (to subtract the hot/stuck-pixel noise), taking lots of short exposures (have a look at the CHDSK custom firmware if you have a modern ish Canon) + doing the processing afterwards on your computer to assemble the full shot (and then you can also consider HDR + etc.).

So back to the original question, digital cameras don't suffer from reciprocity failure, but they do have time-dependent noise.
Due to the fact that the different colour channels have different light strengths + sensitivity of the sensor, you can in particular find that a lot of the noise on an image is in one colour channel or the other (usually in red). You can use this to your advantage + do more Gaussian blurring / noise smoothing in this separate channel and then recombine.

Apols. for the long + technically detailed post :^)
 

shotlighter

Active member
Rob said:
Shotlighter, when linking to pics on Flickr you've got to go to "all sizes" at the top of the page and use one of those.
Cool pic, btw. Never seen a mine passage with twisted walls like that!!!
Thanks for your help Rob.
The passage is that shape because it is driven in and across the dip of the coal seam. The roof being at the the angle of dip & the supports being set at roughly right angles to this.
Cheers
Nigel
Oh & F2.8 BTW
 

Razzerip1

New member
In reply to Jarvist - here is a 6 sec exposure shot on a Canon G10 using a Scurion

Its a constant battle between to much noise or the shot being over exposed.
4384683744_d8aae86c28_o.jpg


Goatchurch Cavern
 

footleg

New member
Actually got underground last weekend with my MagicShine bike lamp (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.25149) to try it out with the video camera and for light painting. The light itself is very compact. The light and battery pack fit in a small pelicase I have which is only a little bigger than a DistoX.

The narrow beam of this light is great for highlighting key features, and fine for light painting as you can point the light exactly where you want to illuminate. But for video you need a wide area light as well if you want to light up the whole scene at once. It gets quite hot too. It is designed with the assumption that you will be moving at speed on a mountain bike, not stationary in a cave. But on the plus side we were able to use it to warm up the lens of the SLR which kept fogging up because it was colder than the cave air temperature!

We were using a combination of flashes and the LED lights to blur the water on some cascades. About 12sec exposures. I can't post any pictures as I was assisting, not actually taking the pictures myself. So I've not seen them yet apart from on camera in the cave.
 

outkast

New member
If you are looking for a cheap light with plenty of poke you wont go far wrong keeping an eye on the lidl and aldi websites for when they sell the livarno lux torches, they are only ?15 and take three D cell batteries, I found them good for light painting in tunnels, I have read that some have broken after a few weeks but others are still going strong, they have a three year warrenty so can be returned.

I took the shot below in coulsden deep shelter using the above torch, the passage is around 120ft long and it lite all the way to the end quite nicely.
011-14.jpg


alternatively, if you want to spend a bit more money you could invest in a lenser P7, a very compact little torch wich packs a punch, also has two power setting, so if you find your pics are a little over exposed you can click it down to the lower setting and still get good results.

The pic below was taken in france in a former V2 launch site using the P7
019.jpg


Browns folly mine using the P7
034-8.jpg
 
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